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Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/22/14 7:26 p.m.
kb58 wrote: My "favorite experience" was walking in towards the Parts Department. As soon as you step foot on their property, you can feel the homing systems triangulating in on you. "Hi, see anything you like?" "No thanks, I'm headed to the Parts Department." "How about this model here?" "No, I'm headed to the Parts Department." "What color are you looking for?" "I'm not, I'm headed to the Parts Department." "Okay, I feel like we aren't off on the right foot, I just want to be your friend." Salesmen act as though they're completely deaf, telling you what they have, and not hearing what you want. Watch the movie "Fargo" (on Netflix streaming) and there's a great scene with a couple *not* wanting paint protectant and undercoat. They captured it perfectly, how the sales guy and the customer seem to be having two separate conversations.

Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5gwc4UizUc

solfly
solfly Reader
5/22/14 8:14 p.m.
FSP_ZX2 wrote:
mazdeuce wrote: Normally, the dentist is more pleasant than a dealership and I hate dentists to the core of their very soul.
Huh. I didn't know that dentists had souls.

Anti dentite

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
5/23/14 6:00 a.m.

How this ever became a business model, I'll never know. I can't think of any other product that is purchased the way new vehicles are. Hopefully, the internet will help kill it over time.

My last experience included a price that suddenly jumped $800 ("market adjustment, because it will cost us more to replace that unit with another") and an outright lie ("oh, the excess registration that we charge up front for an out-of-state purchase will be refunded to you"). Though I did wind up with a good vehicle at a decent price, I still got screwed around, lied to, and hours of my day were wasted.

My ONE good experience was getting my in-laws a used Ford Edge at a local dealer. Priced right on the internet, knowledgeable sales person, no shenanigans and offered more for their BMW 3 series than CarMax. I'm still stunned at how easy it was. That is one experience out of an entire lifetime of car buying, though. I'll buy private or from a small used car lot any day over a big, new car franchise.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/23/14 6:08 a.m.
ddavidv wrote: How this ever became a business model, I'll never know. I can't think of any other product that is purchased the way new vehicles are. Hopefully, the internet will help kill it over time. My last experience included a price that suddenly jumped $800 ("market adjustment, because it will cost us more to replace that unit with another") and an outright lie ("oh, the excess registration that we charge up front for an out-of-state purchase will be refunded to you"). Though I did wind up with a good vehicle at a decent price, I still got screwed around, lied to, and hours of my day were wasted. My ONE good experience was getting my in-laws a used Ford Edge at a local dealer. Priced right on the internet, knowledgeable sales person, no shenanigans and offered more for their BMW 3 series than CarMax. I'm still stunned at how easy it was. That is one experience out of an entire lifetime of car buying, though. I'll buy private or from a small used car lot any day over a big, new car franchise.

Isn't that the truth. All the different fees/charges for everything is ridiculous. I won't even finance through a dealership anymore as the last two times the math was done incorrectly on the paperwork and shockingly.............it favored the dealership by a couple hundred dollars. I mean can you believe that? They can't/won't even get the figures to add up correctly. Like you said hopefully the internet will kill the sales end of car buying.

kanaric
kanaric HalfDork
5/23/14 6:36 a.m.

When I bought the Subaru they were good and didn't berkeley me around when i came in knowing what I want and what I wanted to pay and didn't try to convince me of anything and told me options I shouldn't bother with (ie. exhaust, etc). Never had a dealer tell me not to spend money. They were very knowledgeable about the car and wanted to make sure I knew how to use all the bits on it even though i told her that I knew it already they wanted to be absolutely sure. When I said no to extended warranty and GAP protection they didn't push it. IDK if all Subaru dealerships are like this but it was great. Dealership was in California, Subaru of Ontario. Subaru of Las Vegas were massive E36 M3stains. Called them and when I showed I wanted to negotiate a price they seemed annoyed with me and showing them what I could get the car in the other state they told me to drive.

The local Ford dealership on the otherhand were berkeleying ridiculous. They just refused to accept what I wanted and kept trying to sell me all kinds of bullE36 M3 that I did not want. They sold me a Mustang GT premium like $7000 off MSRP when I came in wanting a base GT, idk if they reeled me in or what but it was a very annoying experience to buy a car from them. They went back and adjusted the price like 6 times while I kept saying NO I want the base to them. They also kept trying to sell me a used Boss 302 that I didn't want to pay for. I wonder what I could of got them on the base GT (w/track package of course) but the hours of negotiation made their deal seem like a deal. I like the car but the process left a seriously bad taste in my mouth and wont be buying from a dealership that does this again. I wish I was an shiny happy person so I could of just told them to berkeley off every time they tried to sell me something. I had to say NO to everything multiple times. Wish I checked out a Cali dealership.

Depending on how this trial JDM import goes I might stick to 25 year old imports exclusively after this. The process to purchase that car was far less annoying. It was read inspection sheet, win auction, receive car.... months later.

Forgot. The stupidest thing Ford wanted to sell me was this maintenance plan. They showed me how much it would cost to service the car each interval and why it was a "deal" they listed each service as being $135 minimum. Keep in mind that these are mostly just oil changes, lmao. berkeleying absurd.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill PowerDork
5/23/14 7:15 a.m.
kb58 wrote: My "favorite experience" was walking in towards the Parts Department. As soon as you step foot on their property, you can feel the homing systems triangulating in on you. "Hi, see anything you like?" "No thanks, I'm headed to the Parts Department."

This was my experience at Car Max, which for some strange reason, was also a Nissan dealership. It got to where I would go in through the service entrance to avoid those goobers.

SeanC
SeanC New Reader
5/23/14 7:19 a.m.

It's a used car story, but i had to chime in. Last year my wife and i discovered that her van had frame rot and needed to be replaced ahead of schedule. We had a budget of about $16k, were going to pay cash, and figured it'd be easy enough. She decided she wanted a RAV4, 4-cyl, silver. Ok. We found one at a dealership, liked the price, and dent down there.

We took a test drive, the saleman was a younger guy with not a clue about the car or a person's ability to see that most of what came out of his mouth was BS. Test drive was good and we went back in to work numbers. They wrote up a quote(?) which included MA sales tax - he knew we were from NH and didn't apply to us, it so shouldn't have been on there. Then when we were ready to give them a check(we had cash, no intention of financing anything), the price jumped up $1000 because "...the internet price was only if the vehicle were dealer financed."

I thanked them for wasting all of our time and theirs and we walked out(that must not happen often because the sales staff seemed very confused, apparently people just grudgingly pay like in FARGO?). We got home and looked all through their ads again to make sure we didn't miss any fine print and didn't find any mention of that "finance price only" being anywhere.

Jackasses. That was Bernardi in Framingham, MA if anybody from the area would like to avoid a headache.

We eventually got our RAV4, 4-cyl, silver an IRA in Manchester, NH. though it was still kind of a long day, the staff there was courteous, friendly, worked with us, and didn't try to bait-and-switch us when we told them we were paying cash. I actually called IRA and asked about the internet pricing and told them of our Bernardi experience and the "bait-and-switch" line was actually used by the IRA guy I spoke with to describe the Bernardi tactics.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill PowerDork
5/23/14 7:24 a.m.

I had a wonderful new car buying experience at Cale Yarborough Honda Mazda back in 1979. The only such experience ever. I walked in the door to buy a 1979 Honda 4dr Accord. The wife had seem them unlaoding them on the way to work that morning. At the time these were THE hot ticket and you had to order oen and wait for mothns. The salesman (Herb ___, last name escapes me) told me they had one that had just come in and he had called the person who's it was to be, and they had already bought one elsewhere. He said, "it's yours" instead of calling the next person on the list. I bought it at list price (around $6,500). The only option we added was AC which they installed. At the time, these cars came with no options. All others dealers were loading them up with ever pimp item they could at the time and adding ADM and tektor paint and fabric protectant ($800).

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/23/14 7:27 a.m.
kanaric wrote: When I bought the Subaru they were good and didn't berkeley me around when i came in knowing what I want and what I wanted to pay and didn't try to convince me of anything and told me options I shouldn't bother with (ie. exhaust, etc). Never had a dealer tell me not to spend money. They were very knowledgeable about the car and wanted to make sure I knew how to use all the bits on it even though i told her that I knew it already they wanted to be absolutely sure. When I said no to extended warranty and GAP protection they didn't push it. IDK if all Subaru dealerships are like this but it was great. Dealership was in California, Subaru of Ontario. Subaru of Las Vegas were massive E36 M3stains. Called them and when I showed I wanted to negotiate a price they seemed annoyed with me and showing them what I could get the car in the other state they told me to drive. The local Ford dealership on the otherhand were berkeleying ridiculous. They just refused to accept what I wanted and kept trying to sell me all kinds of bullE36 M3 that I did not want. They sold me a Mustang GT premium like $7000 off MSRP when I came in wanting a base GT, idk if they reeled me in or what but it was a very annoying experience to buy a car from them. They went back and adjusted the price like 6 times while I kept saying NO I want the base to them. They also kept trying to sell me a used Boss 302 that I didn't want to pay for. I wonder what I could of got them on the base GT (w/track package of course) but the hours of negotiation made their deal seem like a deal. I like the car but the process left a seriously bad taste in my mouth and wont be buying from a dealership that does this again. I wish I was an shiny happy person so I could of just told them to berkeley off every time they tried to sell me something. I had to say NO to everything multiple times. Wish I checked out a Cali dealership. Depending on how this trial JDM import goes I might stick to 25 year old imports exclusively after this. The process to purchase that car was far less annoying. It was read inspection sheet, win auction, receive car.... months later. Forgot. The stupidest thing Ford wanted to sell me was this maintenance plan. They showed me how much it would cost to service the car each interval and why it was a "deal" they listed each service as being $135 minimum. Keep in mind that these are mostly just oil changes, lmao. berkeleying absurd.

At one Kia dealership every new car on the lot had a $3000 add on fee for a "tire warranty package" which basically meant if you a had flat tire/damaged tire you could come into the dealership and get a new tire. What? 3K? You could buy a lot of damn tires for $3K!! They wouldn't budge and were actually shocked when I walked. I reported them to Kia and got the same nonsense as always.......each dealership is independently owned and they can set their own prices blah, blah, blah.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill PowerDork
5/23/14 7:28 a.m.

The real problem I've had buying new cars, in addition to all the lying and cheating, is the absolute lack of knowledge the sales people have about the product they are selling.

fornetti14
fornetti14 GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/23/14 8:03 a.m.

The "paperwork" for your loan has to be biggest targeted rip off point in the process. All verbal negotiations don't mean jack until you work the math on their loan paperwork to catch their mistakes.
A local Ford dealer was busted charging for not one but TWO extended warranties. Hey at least they were covered twice!
Its best to pay cash or finance with your credit union. I once had a dealer tell me that since I wasn't financing with them it was an extra $400 for the car.

SeanC
SeanC New Reader
5/23/14 8:25 a.m.

oh yeah, one more thing. the $300 document fee BS. ok, you're paying the lady doing the paperwork by the hour whether she's doing paperwork or not. Just be happy when she's earning her pay rather than trying to hit me for another $300 for NOTHING.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UltraDork
5/23/14 9:51 a.m.

Its funny when someone walks into a dealership to buy a car TODAY and they still get jerked around.

My buddy bought a brand new 2013 Hyundai Genesis. Got the run around for weeks (he knew he wanted a white base model).

Finally, I went and looked on autotrader and found one in saskatchewan for him. They helped him every step of the way, bing bam boom. He was more than happy to drive 5 hours one way.

yamaha
yamaha UltimaDork
5/23/14 10:05 a.m.

In reply to kanaric:

Maybe they knew all your cylinders would stop working before for long? Probably voided your warranty as well.

Duke
Duke UltimaDork
5/23/14 12:02 p.m.

The thing some of you people seem to not understand is this:

Dealerships are not there to sell you a car. Dealerships are there to make money.

They are not generously providing transportation to the hardworking proletariat. They are not car enthusiasts catering to a hobby crowd. They are not a non-profit community group working for the betterment of the local neighborhood. They do not derive huge personal satisfaction from sending you away in the ideal car of your dreams.

They are a business selling a commodity product at the highest sustainable profit margin they can.

Once you have a firm grasp on this concept, the entire process takes on a different tilt. Assuming you are shopping from inventory rather than trying to build your custom dream machine, the power is ENTIRELY in your hands.

Look at it this way: What they have is a large quantity of cars which represent a very substantial investment for them, and which are entirely useless unless somebody buys them. They have zero value to the dealership except as saleable inventory, and their money is all tied up in these useless paperweights parked all over their lot.

YOU, on the other hand, have your money in hand. Your money is NOT useless to you - it is liquid potential. You can spend your money in any way you want, on this car or that, with this dealership or that. Your options are wide open. Their options are limited. They need YOUR MONEY much more than you need THEIR CAR. You need A car, probably, but you don't necessarily need their particular car. You just need a touch of willpower, patience, and common sense. Do your homework, set price terms for yourself, and stick to them. Or, if you decide to adjust your own price point, do it at home in cold blood. THAT is why you never actually buy the car on the same visit that you decide it's the one you want. ALWAYS walk for at least 24 hours.

As far as the processing fees, paperwork fees, etc: the dealer has a certain amount of money they need to make per sale. Who CARES what they actually call it? If it suits them to call it a Filing Fee instead of profit, big deal; you should be smart enough to recognize it for what it is. You just need to make sure that the price you negotiate for the car is all-inclusive, or at least that there is a very specific list of inclusions or exclusions. Then make your decision accordingly.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/23/14 1:26 p.m.
Duke wrote: The thing some of you people seem to not understand is this: **Dealerships are not there to sell you a car. Dealerships are there to make money.** They are not generously providing transportation to the hardworking proletariat. They are not car enthusiasts catering to a hobby crowd. They are not a non-profit community group working for the betterment of the local neighborhood. They do not derive huge personal satisfaction from sending you away in the ideal car of your dreams. **They are a business selling a commodity product at the highest sustainable profit margin they can.** Once you have a firm grasp on this concept, the entire process takes on a different tilt. Assuming you are shopping from inventory rather than trying to build your custom dream machine, *the power is ENTIRELY in your hands*. Look at it this way: What they have is a large quantity of cars which represent a very substantial investment for them, and which are entirely useless unless somebody buys them. They have zero value to the dealership except as saleable inventory, and their money is all tied up in these useless paperweights parked all over their lot. YOU, on the other hand, have your money in hand. Your money is NOT useless to you - it is liquid potential. You can spend your money in any way you want, on this car or that, with this dealership or that. Your options are wide open. Their options are limited. **They need YOUR MONEY much more than you need THEIR CAR**. You need A car, probably, but you don't necessarily need their particular car. You just need a touch of willpower, patience, and common sense. Do your homework, set price terms for yourself, and stick to them. Or, if you decide to adjust your own price point, *do it at home in cold blood.* THAT is why you never actually buy the car on the same visit that you decide it's the one you want. ALWAYS walk for at least 24 hours. As far as the processing fees, paperwork fees, etc: the dealer has a certain amount of money they need to make per sale. Who CARES what they actually call it? If it suits them to call it a Filing Fee instead of profit, big deal; you *should* be smart enough to recognize it for what it is. You just need to make sure that the price you negotiate for the car is all-inclusive, or at least that there is a very specific list of inclusions or exclusions. Then make your decision accordingly.

I for one get that and probably most of us here get that fact. Business is to make money. My issue is how they do it. You go to the grocery store, the price is on the item, you take it up front and pay for it plus tax. Done. You walk out. They don't charge you a basket use fee, or a can disposal fee, or a tax because the day you are there starts with a "T" fee or any number of other idiotic scammy charges. The cash register at the grocery store doesn't double the cost of the item or add it up wrong. Auto sales is so corrupt and disgusting with all their hidden charges. That's my problem with them. What's the price of the car with all the BS added on.....out the door? If I don't like it then I can walk.

jstein77
jstein77 SuperDork
5/23/14 2:33 p.m.
Ranger50 wrote: In reply to Feedyurhed: Internet sales guy time?

I know I'm jumping from page 1 to page 3 on this one, but I've found that this tends to minimize the BS. When we bought the wife's van last year, we found the internet guy pretty easy to deal with. The only hurdles we had to jump over were the manager and the finance lady, and those weren't insurmountable. In the end, we got a really good price.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla PowerDork
5/23/14 3:47 p.m.

In reply to Datsun1500:

But then you can't complain those evil stealerships and how they rip everyone off!

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
5/23/14 4:21 p.m.

In reply to Datsun1500:

I do that to 5 instead of 3 and do it in a larger market and then take it to my local guy.

TeamEvil
TeamEvil HalfDork
5/23/14 7:16 p.m.

"How this ever became a business model, I'll never know."

I always figured that it grew directly out of horse trading. Both deal with basic transportation needs, both have a reputation for shady deals, both require a good hard look at the item before starting negotiations, and both have the potential for you getting screwed by an unscrupulous dealer.

Maybe? I can't think of another reason why this sort of business model would be the norm.

EvanR
EvanR Dork
5/24/14 12:12 a.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: Every car has a price tag, just like the milk in the grocery store.

This is a re-hash of an earlier thread, but I would pay money to see you go into a car dealer in Las Vegas and leave with a car for which you ONLY paid MSRP + sales tax.

Simply not possible here. I double-dog dare you.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/24/14 6:38 a.m.
EvanR wrote:
Datsun1500 wrote: Every car has a price tag, just like the milk in the grocery store.
This is a re-hash of an earlier thread, but I would pay money to see you go into a car dealer in Las Vegas and leave with a car for which you ONLY paid MSRP + sales tax. Simply not possible here. I double-dog dare you.

That's the problem..........it's not just Vegas anymore, it's everywhere. It use to be if you went to a shady dealership you just walked out and went to a different one down the street. It's almost impossible to find a reputable one anymore. They all play those moronic games. They all must go to the same seminar to learn how to rip off the public in new and creative ways.

kanaric
kanaric HalfDork
5/24/14 7:01 a.m.
Feedyurhed wrote:
kanaric wrote: When I bought the Subaru they were good and didn't berkeley me around when i came in knowing what I want and what I wanted to pay and didn't try to convince me of anything and told me options I shouldn't bother with (ie. exhaust, etc). Never had a dealer tell me not to spend money. They were very knowledgeable about the car and wanted to make sure I knew how to use all the bits on it even though i told her that I knew it already they wanted to be absolutely sure. When I said no to extended warranty and GAP protection they didn't push it. IDK if all Subaru dealerships are like this but it was great. Dealership was in California, Subaru of Ontario. Subaru of Las Vegas were massive E36 M3stains. Called them and when I showed I wanted to negotiate a price they seemed annoyed with me and showing them what I could get the car in the other state they told me to drive. The local Ford dealership on the otherhand were berkeleying ridiculous. They just refused to accept what I wanted and kept trying to sell me all kinds of bullE36 M3 that I did not want. They sold me a Mustang GT premium like $7000 off MSRP when I came in wanting a base GT, idk if they reeled me in or what but it was a very annoying experience to buy a car from them. They went back and adjusted the price like 6 times while I kept saying NO I want the base to them. They also kept trying to sell me a used Boss 302 that I didn't want to pay for. I wonder what I could of got them on the base GT (w/track package of course) but the hours of negotiation made their deal seem like a deal. I like the car but the process left a seriously bad taste in my mouth and wont be buying from a dealership that does this again. I wish I was an shiny happy person so I could of just told them to berkeley off every time they tried to sell me something. I had to say NO to everything multiple times. Wish I checked out a Cali dealership. Depending on how this trial JDM import goes I might stick to 25 year old imports exclusively after this. The process to purchase that car was far less annoying. It was read inspection sheet, win auction, receive car.... months later. Forgot. The stupidest thing Ford wanted to sell me was this maintenance plan. They showed me how much it would cost to service the car each interval and why it was a "deal" they listed each service as being $135 minimum. Keep in mind that these are mostly just oil changes, lmao. berkeleying absurd.
At one Kia dealership every new car on the lot had a $3000 add on fee for a "tire warranty package" which basically meant if you a had flat tire/damaged tire you could come into the dealership and get a new tire. What? 3K? You could buy a lot of damn tires for $3K!! They wouldn't budge and were actually shocked when I walked. I reported them to Kia and got the same nonsense as always.......each dealership is independently owned and they can set their own prices blah, blah, blah.

Ford tried to sell me that tired E36 M3 as well. I said no and gave them the same reason, lol.

Every car has a price tag, just like the milk in the grocery store. You can walk in, pay the price on the car and leave, just like you can at the grocery store, no one is stopping you.

That's not the problem. Getting a good price "on the car" is easy. It's all the bullE36 M3 they try and succeed to tack on.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
5/24/14 7:08 a.m.
kanaric wrote:
Feedyurhed wrote:
That's not the problem. Getting a good price "on the car" is easy. It's all the bullE36 M3 they try and succeed to tack on.

^^^^^ It's this. That's the problem. You agree on a reasonable price then they stick it to you.

Mike
Mike GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
5/24/14 7:10 a.m.

They're evolving for the internet, at least with this story. Every salesman I've talked to now tells me that the internet now forces them to compete on price in a way they didn't before. Today, the price they post online has to be their rock bottom price, because that is the only way for them to get customers in the door. No, they can't go lower it.

Of course, we know that trade-in value books are published, so it's a giant "surprise" for me to learn that every dealer around here claims to pay about a hundred under dealer retail to buy their inventory when negotiations start.

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