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David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/12/21 2:58 p.m.
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Pairing together the words “Porsche” and “project” usually sound the warning bells.

Bring a Trailer just got $26,255 for a 1999 Porsche 911 Carrera 4. According to Hagerty's guide, that’s a tick more than No. 3 money–that being the price for a good example.

The kicker here? "The selling dealer notes that engine oil is present in the coolant …

Read the rest of the story

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/12/21 3:02 p.m.

I think it's a case of rising 997 prices driving the 996 market.  I think this because every time my toy car budget starts to get close to 911 purchase prices the market drives the prices up and it was time for that market adjustment to take place again.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 3:04 p.m.

Automatic and engine oil in the coolant. Someone hit the lottery on that one, unless they have a free known good engine stashed away somewhere.

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/12/21 3:08 p.m.

I have given up on 911s.

Opinion naturally but I now find the prices to be ridiculous and without rhyme or reason.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/12/21 3:13 p.m.

The list of things that can go wrong with the m96 engines doesn't stop with the IMS bearing. Don't forget d-chunking the cylinder liners and engine block porosity. 

When I looked at this stuff in 2016 a refurbished engine from Raby was 20k and a 6 month wait. 

It's notable that the 996 was left out of the "First time Porsche buyer's guide." 

 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/12/21 3:21 p.m.

Tim shared this sale with me this morning. Well, I thought, 997 prices are on the rise since examples with stick shifts are hard to find.

Then I noticed that this one had a Tip....

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 3:24 p.m.

Nothing an LS won't fix :)

Seriously.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 3:26 p.m.

Also looks like the head gaskets were changed not too long ago, and there still are traces of oil in the cooling system. Makes one wonder a little bit.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/12/21 3:35 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

I have given up on 911s.

Opinion naturally but I now find the prices to be ridiculous and without rhyme or reason.

The uptick in the 996 market is kinda like the recent renewed interest in the Star Wars prequels.  Coincidence?  

The Phantom Menace (1999) ; Porsche 996 (1999)

Attack of the Clones (2002) ; Porsche 996.2 (2002)

Revenge of the Sith (2005) ; Porsche 997 (2005)

 

 

Jordan Rimpela
Jordan Rimpela GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/12/21 3:51 p.m.

The 996 is on the rise, thanks mostly in part because the aircooled market drove buyers out along with the 997 market. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
7/12/21 3:53 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Nothing an LS won't fix :)

Seriously.

Square left in 50 caution ocean! - Author of How To Build a High Performance Mazda Miata

I drove this car a few weeks ago. Not going to lie... it made me want to pick up a 996 with a blown engine!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 4:05 p.m.

I've had a lot of fun playing tag with an 80's 911 that had an LS7 stuck up the backside. Weirdly, I could gain on him on the straight but couldn't come near his traction level off the 2nd gear hairpin. Then he overheated. But that might be less of a problem that was designed with water radiators from the factory.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/12/21 4:32 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:

It's notable that the 996 was left out of the "First time Porsche buyer's guide." 

Yeah, but the 986 is on there. I supposed the lower cost of entry makes it a better gamble, but that doesn't do you much good if you do end up having to replace an engine.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 4:42 p.m.

IIRC David had to rebuild the engine in his older 911 but still came out ahead because he bought before The Spike.

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/12/21 4:43 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Nothing an LS won't fix :)

Seriously.

Square left in 50 caution ocean! - Author of How To Build a High Performance Mazda Miata

I watched this auction too and when it was hovering around $10k I thought an LS swap was the answer I was looking for 

Steelpig
Steelpig New Reader
7/12/21 4:47 p.m.

That is nuts.  I sold a 997 with 120k on it at the end of 2018.  I sold for financial reasons and i have regretted it since it drove away.  It is still going strong.  I had a hard time getting 23k.  I had planned to get another when i was able to, but i don't think its going to happen unless the bottom falls out.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/12/21 4:49 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
CrustyRedXpress said:

It's notable that the 996 was left out of the "First time Porsche buyer's guide." 

Yeah, but the 986 is on there. I supposed the lower cost of entry makes it a better gamble, but that doesn't do you much good if you do end up having to replace an engine.

And I didn't understand why they recommending both the 997.1 and 987 Cayman in that article even though they both have the non serviceable IMS.  To me things go 997.2 > 996 > 997.1 in last place by a long way. 

I think the 986/996 IMS bearing started off by artificially depressing the 996 market, including turbo's even though they had Metzger engines.  I think the issue was blown way out of proportion by those who developed and marketed the 'permanent' fix that they no longer promote as permanent.  I think the market for the M96 engine cars is now a)self correcting.  b) values are being dragged up by the non affordability of the oil cooled cars and c) the stupid used car market today caused by the chip shortage.

I haven't tried to figure it out yet, but I bet if you adjust for the value of money and inflation etc. you'll find that 996's are really now back on the 'normal' 911 depreciation-appreciation curve having been criminally undervalued for the last 15 years.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/12/21 5:31 p.m.

Well I got robbed on my 996 sale based on this one.  Oh well.  I seem to have bad luck selling, perpetually.

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera Dork
7/12/21 5:44 p.m.

I bought my 996 for $18K and sold it 4 years and 10K miles later in 2018 for $18K.  I regret selling my 911, but I don't regret not owning my 911.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/12/21 6:24 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

FWIW, the 996 was on the long list for that article. smiley

The idea was to narrow the field a bit. You want a water-cooled 911? Look at a 997. You want an air-cooled 911? Look at a Carrera/SC? Looking for more of a value buy? Look at a 944.

The 997 beat out the 996 just because it's newer and a bit nicer to live with. And prices aren't likely to dip any further so timing also came into play. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/12/21 6:27 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

IIRC David had to rebuild the engine in his older 911 but still came out ahead because he bought before The Spike.

Yeah, fortunately I bought when air-cooled prices had fully dipped. It wasn't a full rebuild, either: freshened the heads and, while the engine was out, replaced a bunch of seals, etc. Now the engine is good for another few decades, I figure. You can read updates over on the Classic Motorsports site

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/12/21 6:28 p.m.

I think I may just start looking at 968s. It's odd enough and you don't see them everyday.

Sidewayze
Sidewayze Reader
7/12/21 8:15 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

I think I may just start looking at 968s. It's odd enough and you don't see them everyday.

3L 4 cylinder just sounds like a bag of torquey goodness to me.

Tim Suddard
Tim Suddard Publisher
7/12/21 8:16 p.m.

I have been looking at doing a cheap early water cooled 911 as a project car. The prices have been just going nuts. Spent a day a few weeks ago thrashing a 991 GT3. Wow, just wow. I had no idea how far 911s have come.

Tim Suddard
Tim Suddard Publisher
7/12/21 8:19 p.m.

And speaking of values... I bought the 986 Boxster S a couple of years ago for $8300, which was a couple of grand below market, because the car was badly presented and February is a good time to buy a convertible. Today that car is worth closer to $20,000. Sure, I fixed a few things, but sub $10,000 or even $15,000 Boxster S Porsches is a thing of the past.

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