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David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/12/21 8:26 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

I think I may just start looking at 968s. It's odd enough and you don't see them everyday.

At one of our local PCA events several years back, oddly, we had four or five 968s there. I think 968s outnumbered air-cooled cars that day. (It was a weekday, evening meeting in Orlando, so mostly late-model stuff.)

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/12/21 10:28 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Having attended PCA track days for the last 20 years I've yet to see one there. The last time I've seen one at the track was probably back in the mid 90s; we had a guy who raced one in ITE.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/13/21 12:09 a.m.

I had no interest in ever owning a Porsche.  This is helping.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/13/21 8:24 a.m.

Glad I bought my 996 Turbo when I did.  C4S's are selling for at least, if not more, now than what I paid for the turbo...

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
7/13/21 8:51 a.m.

Bad motor + ground effects + silly rear spoiler = me thinking that it's an abused car not nearly worth the final price.

Agreeing with the interest in 968's.  Can't see myself owning one, though.  

 

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/13/21 2:14 p.m.
Appleseed said:

I had no interest in ever owning a Porsche.  This is helping.

I've never had the slightest inkling of wanting a Porsche either. I drove a 944 once, and found it a wallowy pig with an engine that felt like it came out of a tractor. I also drove a Macan of some trim level and that thing was kinda cool for a CUV but at the end of the day it was still a CUV.

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera Dork
7/13/21 2:50 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

I think you're driving the wrong Porsches.

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
7/13/21 8:02 p.m.

Not just stupid it's berkeleying stupid.  

 

Another great example is a red 997.1 GT3.  It was wrecked on track, was for sale for 68k last year....didn't sell, a different dealer attempts to sell at 86k...it's doesn't sell so now another dealer is giving it a go...at 110freaking thousand dollars.  For a beat to hell, previously wrecked car.  Some poor bastard is going to get raped.  Where are people getting all this money to literally burn?

Flynlow (FS)
Flynlow (FS) Dork
7/14/21 9:27 a.m.
David S. Wallens said:
 

Pairing together the words “Porsche” and “project” usually sound the warning bells.

Bring a Trailer just got $26,255 for a 1999 Porsche 911 Carrera 4. According to Hagerty's guide, that’s a tick more than No. 3 money–that being the price for a good example...

BringATrustfund strikes again. 

People like to say, "Oh that's just the market now", but it really, really isn't.  They made a LOT of 996s (and aircooleds for that matter).  Dealers can advertise at whatever sky high price they want, but obfuscating the sales data or buyer info just means its funny money to me (shill bidding, or the wrecked 911 trading between dealers at ever-increasing prices described in a prior post).  One dealer selling to another at inflated prices, and bragging that's what the new normal is, but the car never goes "off-market" and re-enters private use.

preach (fs)
preach (fs) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/14/21 3:17 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Nothing an LS won't fix :)

Seriously.

I get asked all the time what will I do if I blow up the engine in my 987.1 (OMG the IMS Issue!!! /rolleyes). My answer is always aluminum LS or turbo K-series.

The car is stupid fun with 300hp at the wheels forget about 4-500.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/14/21 4:38 p.m.

Everyone who says "Just LS swap it!" rarely has ever gone through the pain and misery of an LS swap.  Having done so, I'd never do it again. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
7/14/21 6:24 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

I had a guy Sunday ask me about doing an LS swap in a 78  911 with a missing engine , 

but of course its not plumbed for  water cooling so you are really going to hack up a good car ,  but a running smog legal aircooled motor is worth as much  as the dead car !

or am I wrong and you do not have to hack the body for the radiator etc ?

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/15/21 9:27 a.m.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

No, there's a lot of work to get a radiator and plumbing into a car that wasn't designed for that.  By the time an LS swap is done, the owner could've easily paid for a proper air cooled engine to go in and not have to deal with the resultant shake out issues, loss of resale value, etc, etc, etc.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
7/15/21 10:49 a.m.
docwyte said:

In reply to californiamilleghia :

No, there's a lot of work to get a radiator and plumbing into a car that wasn't designed for that.  By the time an LS swap is done, the owner could've easily paid for a proper air cooled engine to go in and not have to deal with the resultant shake out issues, loss of resale value, etc, etc, etc.

thats what I thought  and told him that it was better to sell it and keep away from Renagade in Nevada !

Tk8398
Tk8398 HalfDork
7/15/21 12:10 p.m.
Tim Suddard said:

And speaking of values... I bought the 986 Boxster S a couple of years ago for $8300, which was a couple of grand below market, because the car was badly presented and February is a good time to buy a convertible. Today that car is worth closer to $20,000. Sure, I fixed a few things, but sub $10,000 or even $15,000 Boxster S Porsches is a thing of the past.

I have seen a few for sub $10k, even drove a $5k one that actually functioned better than you would expect for the price, but was as rough as you would expect.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/21 12:34 p.m.
docwyte said:

Everyone who says "Just LS swap it!" rarely has ever gone through the pain and misery of an LS swap.  Having done so, I'd never do it again. 

I've done a couple :) I know it's not easy.

It's not my knee-jerk answer to everything, but the end result is arguably a better car in this case with lower maintenance costs AND it's a sorted swap. If I were staring down the repair bills to fix a sub-300 hp Porsche engine, I'd be taking it very seriously as an alternative.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/15/21 3:22 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You have access to knowledge and skills most don't have.  LS swapping any 911, whether its air or water cooled is a huge endeavor, both in time, money and frustration.  I'd never tell someone to do it, it's almost always going to cost more and take much more time to shake out than just putting in a Porsche motor. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/21 3:27 p.m.

Guess how you get the knowledge and skills? You do stuff!

I do wonder if it would really cost more, especially on a wasserboxer. And even if it does cost more, that's only the first time and it's cheaper than trying to get 50% more power out of the Porsche mill would be to boot :)

preach (fs)
preach (fs) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/15/21 3:34 p.m.

https://www.ladismantler.com/porsche-911-997-997s-rebuilt-3-8-3-8l-engine-assembly-m97-01/

I mean, if you wanted to di it factory...

P3PPY
P3PPY GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/15/21 8:00 p.m.

In reply to Tim Suddard :

Shoot. I was hoping to have one of those too, had seen them around that same price a couple years back. 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/15/21 11:11 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

While I agree with that, remember that this board tends to be quite a bit more hands on than most enthusiasts.  The LS, while good, still isn't all that and a bag of chips, plus that swap brings up other issues.  Like if you can't do all the work yourself, who is going to work on the car for you when something goes wrong?  Most shops don't want to deal with a bespoke car like this, they can't charge book rate for it.

Maybe not for a 996, but an engine swap like this will otherwise devalue the car significantly...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 12:02 a.m.

An $82k ND Miata would indicate that it's not necessarily devalued by the swap :) But yes, if you're building the car to please the next owner you may have to take that into account. I'm looking more at making a better car, not pleasing a purist.

I've found that getting someone to service a swapped car is easier than finding someone to work on a modified one. And there are a lot more guys in my town familiar with Chebbys than Porches. 

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/21 1:48 a.m.

I don't doubt that an LS swap makes for a technically better 911 but one doesn't buy a 911 because they've done the math and a 911 is the best choice.  They buy them because they love the looks or the sound or the way they drive or the overall character or what they symbolize to the buyer.  That flat 6 is a big part of the equation.  If I ever pry open my wallet enough to buy a 911 it'll have a Porsche 6 in it.  Not because it makes sense but because it's a big part of the experience I'm looking for.  Would an LS swapped 911 be an amazing car?  Probably, but not one I want.

 

 

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/21 9:33 a.m.

One thing no one is considering is that an LS swapped 911 is probably not that incredible.  Seriously, Porsche guys are willing to spend fortunes, and if the LS swap was that awesome there would be a lot more of them.  I haven't heard of a single person pulling a Mezger GT3 engine to put in a more powerful LS engine, not even once.  I get it for older woefully underpowered 944s, etc, but in the 911 there are other options.  I know of a guy currently putting a GT3 Mezger in a Carrera 996.  An LS swap would be similar cost. 

LS swaps are amazing in older GM trucks, and cars, and lots of cars.  I just don't see it as the end all be all for the 911 or way more Porsche guys would be doing it.  Plenty of them only care about lap times and lap times only.  If it were that incredible, we'd see a lot more of them. 

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 10:00 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I think there may be some purist pushback. See the post above yours. Also, you probably wouldn't be allowed to play on PCA track days if your car sounds more like a pickup truck than a Beetle which would restrict opportunities to set track super duper lap times. I know that the owner I was running with took flack for putting the LS engine in, but he had no regrets and that was an aircooled.

Has anyone actually done an LS conversion on a 911? There are kits on the market, and IIRC there was a conversion on the forum a few years ago. Do we really know that it's the same cost as finding a GT3 engine and swapping it in?

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