Nick Comstock said:Just got home from work and actually have a little bit of encouraging news.
Encouraging because it makes the splitting easier or encouraging because it makes the staying easier?
I don't need an answer I just wanted to put the thought in your mind,
In reply to John Welsh :
Answering that question in my head... externally on this post
Encouraging because it's a step towards her being able to be independent and self sufficient and if it actually happened it's a sign of her willingness to do so.
I'm cutting off the funds as well. I figure the more uncomfortable I make it here the more willing she will be to get out sooner than later.
Nick Comstock said:In reply to John Welsh :
Answering that question in my head... externally on this post
Encouraging because it's a step towards her being able to be independent and self sufficient and if it actually happened it's a sign of her willingness to do so.
I'm cutting off the funds as well. I figure the more uncomfortable I make it here the more willing she will be to get out sooner than later.
If it was me I'd do something a bit less passive aggressive, someone with no money, desperate and in your house is not a good idea
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I know I've painted her in a bad light here. But she's a really good person. She's thoughtful and empathetic. She's not in any way sociopathic or narcissistic. She has some demons but she's not the devil.
In reply to Nick Comstock :
Desperation can make people do something you didn't see coming
Nick Comstock said:In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I know I've painted her in a bad light here. But she's a really good person. She's thoughtful and empathetic. She's not in any way sociopathic or narcissistic. She has some demons but she's not the devil.
I don't think she's sociopathic, or narcissistic, or malicious, or anything like that. That's what makes this hard.
If I had to guess, I'd assume she has a mix of mental illness and developed coping strategies growing up that offered a short-term path of least resistance, but that fall apart in the longer term. She's alcoholic. That's a disease. It may also be masking other mental illness. She's figured out how to use being likeable to ingratiate herself on people. It's not malicious. I don't think it's conscious. I think she grew up with problems she didn't know how to handle, other people wanted to help her, and so she was always able to use other people to handle the things she couldn't, until eventually she used them up. Then she probably held herself together long enough to find another person who could help her out as she fell apart again.
Someone is liable to think this is predatory, but I don't think it is. It's a learned and established pattern. She's not evil, she's sick and stuck in adolescence.
Thing is, all those people who stuck around and helped her until their capacity to help got used up, *chose* to stick around. They perpetuated the cycle.
If you truly care about her, the best thing to do, is to NOT become another one of those people. If you stay all in and stick it out, you will probably hit your breaking point where you don't care anymore. If you want to help, you will need to step back, evaluate what you're capable of putting up with in perpetuity, and establish boundaries to not let her push past that.
Even if you do that, you won't solve her problems. Only she can decide to solve her problems. She's not going to make that decision as long as her established pattern is more comfortable. All you'd be doing is giving her an opportunity to make that decision which she might or she might not.
I know you're feeling hopeful that she's saying things that make you think she might be open to help, but I can pretty much guarantee that's part of the cycle she's learned. She can tell that she's pushed things to a breaking point. She's aware of that and doesn't want things to break. Again, that doesn't make her evil or manipulative. She may very well want to genuinely have a healthy relationship with someone who she cares about and cares about her. But that doesn't mean she knows *how* to have a healthy relationship.
Let's assume she is legitimately well meaning and does want a relationship with someone who cares about her. The only way to have that would be to establish firm boundaries where you're not constantly giving, and not enabling her self-harmful behaviors. You need to get yourself into that position. It may or may not be that she understands an accepts that. That's not in your power to decide.
I'm loathe to give definite advice of specific things to do or not, but I think you absolutely should end the romantic relationship with her. Romance complicates things. You can still care about her. You can still help her. You can still love her. But I don't think you should be romantically involved. It makes it harder to keep the clarity to firmly assert the boundaries you both need.
There is so much in this thread relevant to my life.
Nick Comstock said:In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I know I've painted her in a bad light here. But she's a really good person. She's thoughtful and empathetic. She's not in any way sociopathic or narcissistic. She has some demons but she's not the devil.
Okay, I'll boldly offer advice (worth what you pay for it) counter to the prevailing consensus of "kick her out and change the locks."
Communication is the key. She has to know how you feel, what you're considering. She has to get a job and assume some responsibility. Set goals, a timetable. Don't dictate. Agree on it together. If she really wants to get herself together, this could work. If she doesn't, obviously, it won't.
It's been a lifetime ago, but I was in a somewhat similar situation. And despite her demons, she pulled herself together. We had some stormy times, and in the end, she relocated to New Mexico, but I understand that she went on to get a Masters Degree and is doing quite well.
Steve_Jones said:Nick Comstock said:I don't think she would drink and drive. She doesn't like to drive normally.
If it's the only way to get the bottle, she will.
This, or whatever else is going through her head when she is blackout drunk. DO NOT trust your instincts here. Or hers.
Speaking from experience here.
In reply to Beer Baron :
Man you hit the nail in the head. But I'm not sure that I'm capable of doing what needs to be done.
Nick Comstock said:I'll try to make a long story short.
A couple years ago, after my divorce, I met a woman. She lived down in Ormond/Daytona almost three hours away from me. She has a great personality and we were very compatible. She was recovering from a very nasty divorce and was essentially couch surfing. I was making that drive whenever I had some time off work and after a while I asked her to move in with me. I work a ton of hours and have provided everything for her.
She has never shown any ambition to get a job.
I stopped reading after this sentence. Regardless of what I make or can provide, I'm not interested in someone that refuses to something to better themselves.
You're better than that. Cut ties and move on.
In reply to z31maniac :
That seems a little harsh. One hardly needs a "job" to be ambitious. This woman could easily "pay" her way by helping around the house, gardening, or pursuing a creative hobby. It's not so many years ago that women were more or less expected to NOT work. People are far more than just their jobs, and don't need to be "employed" in a traditional sense in order to be useful, productive, and fulfilled members of society.
Nick Comstock said:In reply to Beer Baron :
Man you hit the nail in the head. But I'm not sure that I'm capable of doing what needs to be done.
Of course you're not. No one person is. That's fine. That's normal. This is not a task that one or even two people tackle on their own. It takes a support network.
She needs professional help. You're not a professional.
You probably need some experienced help and support yourself. We may care for you here, but we're not therapists or counselors who can sit down with you and work out a plan. You probably need that. If you have a counseling office at work, talk to them. If you belong to a church, talk to ministers. Reach out to Al-Anon (the support group for family, friends, and loved ones of alcoholics) for their help and direction. I'd maybe talk to Jewish Family Services and see what help they can provide. (You don't need to be Jewish. They are weirdly the most practically helpful non-profit organization I've seen with the most complete services - from helping find employment, to delivering meals, to transportation for poor/elderly/disabled.)
If you mean it's too big of a job and you're not sure you can step back partially and be a friend to her with firm boundaries, and not be a romantic lover... that may be the truth. That's a really hard thing to do that is more than most people could manage.
You have to honestly evaluate what you are capable of doing, and what is the best way to care for her and yourself. I really think that means you need trained and experienced personal guidance.
1988RedT2 said:In reply to z31maniac :
That seems a little harsh. One hardly needs a "job" to be ambitious. This woman could easily "pay" her way by helping around the house, gardening, or pursuing a creative hobby. It's not so many years ago that women were more or less expected to NOT work. People are far more than just their jobs, and don't need to be "employed" in a traditional sense in order to be useful, productive, and fulfilled members of society.
If Nick said that she was showing any consistent ambition or self-discipline, your point would hold a lot more water.
I can't upvote Beer Baron's recent posts strongly enough.
In reply to Duke :
I don't disagree with you.
1988RedT2 said:In reply to z31maniac :
That seems a little harsh. One hardly needs a "job" to be ambitious. This woman could easily "pay" her way by helping around the house, gardening, or pursuing a creative hobby. It's not so many years ago that women were more or less expected to NOT work. People are far more than just their jobs, and don't need to be "employed" in a traditional sense in order to be useful, productive, and fulfilled members of society.
Where did I say job? I said someone who isn't willing to better themselves.
We all have problems, I have plenty, but I try to work on them and get better.
I've stayed out of this thread. Only thing I'll say is that she needs professional help, and I would try to make sure that she knows you don't want to abandon her, but you need to take care of yourself and she is detrimental to that right now. If you can help facilitate professional help, great. I'd recommend starting with https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline, if only to get a direction to go.
After reading through much of this thread, it reminds me of my own experiences. As many of you have said, this is your classic "Enabler/Taker" relationship. By caring for the person, you become the enabler. The taker is in a tough situation, both by chance and by their own doing. They show evidence of being the person you want them to be every once in a while, and it sucks you back in. Then, when the taker feels like they have got you on the hook, they just fall back on their ways. The cycle repeats itself over and over. The only way out is to sever the ties and move on.
I have a person like this in my family. She has single handedly destroyed every familial relationship I have by taking, and those who enable her are stuck in the cycle and have been so long that their only escape is old age and death. She has the enabler hooked so bad that they will do anything to pander to her BS. As much as I fought to point out what was going on, it fell on deaf ears. I have since distanced myself from the situation and cut ties as much as possible, and as harsh as it is, I have to take care of myself and my own family.
Just remember: the person you want them to be will never surface, even if they show signs of it once in a while. What you want them to be and reality are different things. Severing ties is going to hurt, but you need to worry about you before you get sucked in further and end up in a bottomless pit you will never crawl out of.
I think you should to treat her like Schrodinger's Addict - act as though she simultaneously genuinely wants to get better and will get her behavior under control with love and support, and act as though she is set in her ways and is just going to perpetuate the cycle without getting better. It's legitimately impossible to tell which one she is right now. So do what is right regardless of which situation she is in.
Because she genuinely wants to get better, you maintain a line of communication that she can turn to for advice and *emotional* support. If she needs a ride to rehab or to a job interview, you are there to provide that. If she wants to have lunch and cry, you're able to listen.
Because she doesn't really want to get better, you do not enable her behavior. You don't let her live with you. You don't fund her. You don't maintain a romantic relationship where you clean up her messes.
This is the best thing to do either way. If she wants to get better, enabling her will be counterproductive. If she doesn't want to get better, she's not going to care about rides to rehab, or someone who will just let her cry. Once she realizes it won't let her escape her demons, she will self-select out.
And get professional help FOR YOURSELF to give you the support YOU need to be strong and do what YOU need to do. Put your oxygen mask on first.
In reply to Beer Baron :
So very well said.
I don't have any useful advise, but we're pulling for you. It sounds like Curtis and Cameron have excellent advise handled (which is not a surprise).
Beer Baron said:Schrodinger's Addict
This is sadly accurate.
"Boundaries are the distance at which I can love both you and myself"
How's it going?
In reply to Steve_Jones :
Not much news. Very little conversation and no real conversation at all.
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