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DrBoost
DrBoost HalfDork
11/16/09 3:20 p.m.

I'm in Fenton now. I like it here, but I think it's just a matter of time before MI looks like a freaking mad max scene. It's a shame because MI has lots to offer. More fresh water than anywhere else in the world, woods, woods, and more woods, sand dunes, garbage dumps that were converted to a ski hill ("Mount" Holly) and lots and lots of outdoors stuff. No earth quakes, mudslides, huge forest fires, no animals to be concerned with, etc.
Another thing to add to the list of "No ..." No jobs, no economy, no money, no leadership that has a clue, etc.

DrBoost
DrBoost HalfDork
11/16/09 3:21 p.m.
5ev3n wrote: Ah yes, the great nothing. I thought it was with a "c"... I'm actually in Fenton. Not far off from both Detroit or Flint, but I love it here.

I think I've seen you around before in the P71?? I'm at South Long Lake and Torrey.

carguy123
carguy123 Dork
11/16/09 3:28 p.m.

From the pics it appears that the voters that are left are the ones that will always vote for a hand out for themselves. Now what was that quote about Democracy not lasting because once the voters discovered they could vote themselves the largess they would?

5ev3n
5ev3n New Reader
11/16/09 3:34 p.m.

Your "No" list is accurate on both sides of the spectrum. But if you dig deep enough, you can find a bit of charm in the scummy areas of the US's high-five state. Lansing (not east) host's Silver Bells in the City which is an awesome... down to earthy... kind of celebration. Makes you almost trust humanity again. At least, it makes me enjoy freezing my ass off in downtown Lansing a bit.

That would be me. But I think there is another state police blue P71 cruising around also. Mine has a ridiculous front push bar system. I've never actually seen it on any other P71. I'm at Owen and Shiawassee where they make that goofy split by the penalty box. But I'm currently buying a house with a huge garage off Runyan Lake.

petegossett
petegossett GRM+ Memberand Dork
11/16/09 3:58 p.m.

I remember a punk band from the Flint/Fenton area from the 80's called the Guilt Bystanders. Really cool band & music...sure wish I could find another copy of their demo someday.

jrw1621
jrw1621 Dork
11/16/09 5:07 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: I was in Northwest Detroit. 6 mile and grand river area, "old Redford" as it's known.

Not just NW Detroit but just barely in Detroit.
When I worked for Sprint we Grand Opened a store at 7 mile and Telegraph and the hyped the E36 M3 out of the fact that we opened a store within the "City of Detroit."
Well, kind of. Sure, it was technically in Detorit but if you went one street over you were no longer in Detroit.

Years later, I had co-workers who used to like the luchtime meatloaf special served at "Sandy's near the Beach" a bar on 5 mile Rd near Beach Daily Rd.

You and I are about the same age and it looks like our upbringings were similar, I just happened to be in Toledo (the most southern suburb of Detroit.)

pinchvalve
pinchvalve GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/16/09 6:00 p.m.

My understanding about converting areas to green spaces was that the City was trying to physically shrink itself in order to do more with the resources they still have. In neighborhoods that used to house hundreds, there is now one old person living amongst the ruins. The city has to provide water, sanitation, electricity and so on. So they want to relocate some folks, shrink the town borders, and raze the blight and let it return to nature. Sounds like a sound idea on all counts, except people are bitching about loosing their home and being relocated. I am not for the Chinese relocation plan (get on the truck, now) but I cant understand standing in the way of something like that just to stay in some old house with no neighbors. I would give them a deadline and cut city services the day after. Detroit needs to restructure to survive, just like the companies that made it what it once was.

oldsaw
oldsaw HalfDork
11/16/09 6:34 p.m.
pinchvalve wrote: My understanding about converting areas to green spaces was that the City was trying to physically shrink itself in order to do more with the resources they still have. In neighborhoods that used to house hundreds, there is now one old person living amongst the ruins. The city has to provide water, sanitation, electricity and so on. So they want to relocate some folks, shrink the town borders, and raze the blight and let it return to nature. Sounds like a sound idea on all counts, except people are bitching about loosing their home and being relocated. I am not for the Chinese relocation plan (get on the truck, now) but I cant understand standing in the way of something like that just to stay in some old house with no neighbors. I would give them a deadline and cut city services the day after. Detroit needs to restructure to survive, just like the companies that made it what it once was.

Some bright bulb will invoke eminent domain and force it to the SCOTUS.

Unfortunately, deviation from property-rights precedents didn't work out so well in New London. It was another example of government promises delivering nothing except misery.

Kinda like everything else.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Reader
11/16/09 7:40 p.m.

I read an issue of TIME magazine a couple of weeks ago; it pointed out that the population of Detroit at one point was something like 1.8mil, and is now down to 900,000? I don't really think there is a way to get around that, and from what I've seen/heard of Detroit (and I've been through a couple of times) it will decay (or implode) on itself. I don't personally see any hope, and the only city in Canada that (again, IMO) comes close might be Winnipeg... and we just have a lot of natives there!

carguy123
carguy123 Dork
11/16/09 8:30 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote: I read an issue of TIME magazine a couple of weeks ago; it pointed out that the population of Detroit at one point was something like 1.8mil, and is now down to 900,000?

That's more than I thought was left in the whole state!

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
11/16/09 9:41 p.m.

I had to get out, and I am glad I did.

BAMF
BAMF Reader
11/16/09 10:07 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: Yeah, I tried not to be to un-PC with my "new family" comment but I can't hide the truth. That was the beginning of the end for that neighborhood.

I don't know about Detroit, but I'll bet the same thing happened there that happened in many other cities. The new family was "different", so the existing families moved away. White flight is one of the major causes of urban decay that often doesn't get talked about. I guess it's easier to blame junkies, their dealers, and other folks for urban decay than the folks who abandoned their own neighborhoods to prevent their kids from going to integrated schools.

That said, Detroit's biggest mistake was putting all of their eggs in one basket.

DrBoost
DrBoost HalfDork
11/17/09 6:11 a.m.
BAMF wrote:
DrBoost wrote: Yeah, I tried not to be to un-PC with my "new family" comment but I can't hide the truth. That was the beginning of the end for that neighborhood.
I don't know about Detroit, but I'll bet the same thing happened there that happened in many other cities. The new family was "different", so the existing families moved away. White flight is one of the major causes of urban decay that often doesn't get talked about. I guess it's easier to blame junkies, their dealers, and other folks for urban decay than the folks who abandoned their own neighborhoods to prevent their kids from going to integrated schools. That said, Detroit's biggest mistake was putting all of their eggs in one basket.

I didn't get out because I didn't want my kids going to integrated schools. Heck, how integrated was my school, we had 3200 kids, and I'd guess less than 100 honkys? The reason I got out was because the house two doors down, once was a very good friend of our family, became a gang house. The one across the street became a crack house, the one next to that was a whore house. I woke up one night and actually listened to a poor lady being beaten (right in the middle of a fairly busy street) into a coma. Hearing crack house raids every few weeks, having both of my sisters raped, our house broken into and once having my brother face down an armed gunman (assault rifle) in our kitchen. And that's staying within 5 houses of ours. Not to mention the chop-shop at the and of the street, all the drug houses, turf wars and crap like that.
The cops didn't come when called, the street lights were turned off in most of the neighborhoods to save the city money, fire stations closed due to lack of funding. Heck, most high schools today have a security guard or two, right? Well, 17 years ago mine had 2 security guards per floor + 1 cop per floor, all day every day. We had a fully-functioning police station IN THE SCHOOL. Despite that, I personally saw more than a few guns, from pistols to sawed-off shotguns in the school. After band, orchestra and every other class that used the auditorium was cancelled the auditorium became the place to skip class. Well, once a group of guys was skipping class in the auditorium some dude was standing on the stage flashing gang signs and rapping. A member of a rival gang came up behind him and slit his freaking throat, right there on the stage. This was 100 ft. from the police station in the school (+ another station across the street). He bleed out on the stage. Nobody said anything to anyone. The guy walked free.

Am I a bad person for running from Detroit? I know I'm not. I wanted to ensure my family would be safe, and that's why I got my mom/dad and sisters out of that hell hole.
And on that "white flight" thing. There was a reason for that. When Coleman Young was elected, he wasn't interested in rebuilding the city, he wanted retribution for the black man. He made no bones about this. When his wonderful political/moral virtues started to take effect, the schools went downhill FAST, the crime rate started climbing FAST and white business owners were made to feel alienated. They did what any other person, regardless of race, would do. The got the heck out. When the voting morons kept reelecting that dude for more than 20 years folks got the message. Then they elect a seemingly decent guy, quickly vote him out to vote in Kwame Kilpatrick. After "the hip-hop mayor" is found to be involved in scandal after scandal he is voted in, AGAIN!! He'd still be in office if it weren't for him now being a felon. When he does come back to Detroit, (for more court hearings) he's welcomed back with open arms.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
11/17/09 7:19 a.m.
BAMF wrote:
DrBoost wrote: Yeah, I tried not to be to un-PC with my "new family" comment but I can't hide the truth. That was the beginning of the end for that neighborhood.
I don't know about Detroit, but I'll bet the same thing happened there that happened in many other cities. The new family was "different", so the existing families moved away. White flight is one of the major causes of urban decay that often doesn't get talked about. I guess it's easier to blame junkies, their dealers, and other folks for urban decay than the folks who abandoned their own neighborhoods to prevent their kids from going to integrated schools. That said, Detroit's biggest mistake was putting all of their eggs in one basket.

I think we should all kick in $10 and buy Boost's old house (should be more than enough) and move BAMF into it. Then he can put his family where his mouth is.

zoomx2
zoomx2 Reader
11/17/09 7:32 a.m.

Military and martial law.... Remove all local government and install Generals and MP's to patrol streets. Swift and unforgiving punishment for all violent criminals (i.e. execution). Raze all abandoned properties. I'm not usually one for Government to rescue the day but to me this is what the National Guard is supposed to be for, to police our own borders, not somebody else's. Once order is restored, restore democracy.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury Dork
11/17/09 7:45 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: When Coleman Young was elected, he wasn't interested in rebuilding the city, he wanted retribution for the black man. He made no bones about this. When his wonderful political/moral virtues started to take effect, the schools went downhill FAST, the crime rate started climbing FAST and white business owners were made to feel alienated. They did what any other person, regardless of race, would do. The got the heck out. When the voting morons kept reelecting that dude for more than 20 years folks got the message. Then they elect a seemingly decent guy, quickly vote him out to vote in Kwame Kilpatrick. After "the hip-hop mayor" is found to be involved in scandal after scandal he is voted in, AGAIN!! He'd still be in office if it weren't for him now being a felon. When he does come back to Detroit, (for more court hearings) he's welcomed back with open arms.

there is no antidote for stupid. That said, voting was designed as a tool for the people to have a voice in who governs them. if people choose to leave rather than effect change, that is their decision. Im not shiny or happy enough to think that if you feel unsafe, that voting for different governance will make you feel safer overnight. But its not like e36m3 went downhill all at once. The decline that D is seeing (as well as other major cities) is the result of the combination of a "its too big, what can I do" mentality of those that do care and the massive qty's of people happy to take advantage of the opportunity to live lawlessly.

I think shrinking the city is an excellent idea. Choose to get with the program or choose to find another utilities/law enforcement/fire safety vendor. Bring down the budget demands to allow for tax incentives to corporations. New governance definitely in order to create a safe environment thru executive order. Find developers (aka architects fresh out of school) to turn abandoned warehouses into condos. Create universities to attract young people to the area.

Its a long row to hoe, and Im probably shinnier and happier than most since Ive never been to Michigan in my life (although I hear the mountain biking there is INCREDIBLE, so I should go for that at least). I think its certainly doable as the (albiet crumbling) infrastructure for MFG in the city is ZOMG!!! Its just going to take A LONG time and very dedicated citizens and government who are like minded in doing whats best long term for the city and not short term for their pocket books. Without an agenda designed solely for urban renewal, the problems will only perpetuate the cities orbit of the drain.

/flounder

Kramer
Kramer HalfDork
11/17/09 8:07 a.m.
DrBoost wrote: ... Kwame Kilpatrick. After "the hip-hop mayor" is found to be involved in scandal after scandal he is voted in, AGAIN!! He'd still be in office if it weren't for him now being a felon. When he does come back to Detroit, (for more court hearings) he's welcomed back with open arms.

And afterKilpatrick became a felon, Roger Penske "loaned" (read: gave) him about $250,000. I respected Penske until then. Now he's lowered himself to scumbag level, along with that dick from Compuware.

DrBoost
DrBoost HalfDork
11/17/09 8:19 a.m.
Kramer wrote: And afterKilpatrick became a felon, Roger Penske "loaned" (read: gave) him about $250,000. I respected Penske until then. Now he's lowered himself to scumbag level, along with that dick from Compuware.

+1

NYG95GA
NYG95GA SuperDork
11/17/09 12:51 p.m.

Maybe turn it into a learning/research project of huge proportions. Let it play itself out, while observing the socialogical changes within. My first thought would be to build a huge wall around it and install armoured cameras to document the progress of the decay, to be used in an attempt to determine a plan to circumvent the same happening in the future.

This plan is Draconian, unmerciful and cruel, likely more of science fiction plot than something to be used in real life, but it would be interesting to watch.

I'm kidding, really.. but not much..

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/17/09 1:04 p.m.
5ev3n wrote: Ah yes, the great nothing. I thought it was with a "c"... I'm actually in Fenton. Not far off from both Detroit or Flint, but I love it here.

My wifes aunt lives Big Nothing, hates that I reference it that way...

Where I live in Mason, we had a catastrophic house fire the first week of October on a busy road near the highway. The lot was cleared leveled and made into a resellable commodity with new asphalt and grass seeding.

Not all of Michigan is E36 M3e... just the part that people think matters.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie HalfDork
11/17/09 1:08 p.m.

Fence the whole city off and use it as a prison. Dump all the murderers, rapists and drug dealers from the rest of the country there, season with a few Arab Terrorists from Gitmo and let it simmer.

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand Reader
11/17/09 1:10 p.m.
NYG95GA wrote: Maybe turn it into a learning/research project of huge proportions. Let it play itself out, while observing the socialogical changes within. My first thought would be to build a huge wall around it and install armoured cameras to document the progress of the decay, to be used in an attempt to determine a plan to circumvent the same happening in the future. This plan is Draconian, unmerciful and cruel, likely more of science fiction plot than something to be used in real life, but it would be interesting to watch. I'm kidding, really.. but not much..

Escape from Detroit? The third squel to Escape from New York.

Never understood why they claimed it was so expensive to tear down the abandoned buildings. Just have a crew of firefighters do a 'controlled burn'. Keep the fire going till its just ashes in the basement. Offer a chance for other cities to send in crews, sounds like good training exercises.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand Dork
11/17/09 1:39 p.m.

Some "optimism"

The square mile downtown isn't horrible. There are quite a few empty buildings, for sure, but within the downtown area, Detroit is ok. Outside of that, is what Boost is talking of.

Second- as bad as voters were, they did vote overwhelmingly FOR changing the city council from the top 9 overall vote getters to direct area representation. That should very much change the make up of the city council when that's re-done. There will be a re-write of the city charter.

Dave Bing did turn his back on the pay for endorsements game, and still won pretty handily.

Robtert Bob is making some decent headway in the Detroit Public schools- well renound for it's waste of money- has the distinction of some of the highest $$ per students paid, and the worst of the worst school district in the state. Corruption is slowly being squeezed. Slowly.

Some very small tidbits that isn't much, and it doesn't address much of the serious problems that forced boost to move out.

There are WAY more things that need solved, and, amazingly, there are a lot of the burbs who still want to help, despite the decades of the mayor and city council flipping them the bird. (remember, Kwame's re-election became city vs. burbs instead of actual problems)

Eric

zoomx2
zoomx2 Reader
11/17/09 3:07 p.m.

Personally I blame these guys for Detroit's demise......

DrBoost
DrBoost HalfDork
11/17/09 4:34 p.m.

Eric speaks the truth. I hope the changes that are happening (while small) will make some significant changes.
After leaving Detroit, I never (and never will) look back. Heck, my auto insurance dropped litterally by 50% even though my first place was about 5000 ft. outside the city limits, I stopped paying residence taxes. It was like getting a nice big pay raise.

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