learn and edumacate me on dishwasher soap

Wow I never thought that this would be hard.

I have this dishwasher

https://www.bosch-home.com/us/productslist/dishwashers/front-controls/SHE3AR76UC

I was using this detergent

https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Dishwasher-Detergent-Powerball-Dishwashing/dp/B07CVWG5L8

and recently switched to this one

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HYWYVPR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use no rinse aid, nothing else at all. My tap water is decent.

This seems nearly impossible, bit here is what I am seeing.

If I take a glass out in the morning and fill it with water from the sink, regular tap, the water appears clear and clean.

If I take that same glass out and fill it with water either from the 000 water filter (room temp) or the fridge water filtered supply, there is noticeable foaming at the top around the circumference. 

If I rinse the same glass once, the foaming does not return.

Why only foaming with filtered water??

What's going on with this soap?

I don't know if this is your issue but I remember reading a couple years back that they have required the removal of all phosphates from dishwasher soap.  What I remember then is that all the soaps pretty much suck at cleaning any more.  I also seem to remember that the "recommendation" then was to add a little tri-soduim-phosphate (tsp) to each cycle.   

Is tsp good for you? Debatable.
Will it get dishes clean? Likely. 

I figure I learned of tsp here on GRM (since I go nowhere else) so a board search of tsp and dishwasher leads me to this old thread...

Phosphates have been regulated out of dish soaps in most places. The low/no phosphates suck at cleaning food off dishes. I add about a 1/3 of a cup of TSP to each load, with the regular liquid dishwasher soap. Makes even crappy rental dishwashers do a half way decent job.

A 4.5 lb box lasts 9+ months.

Your Cascade label brags that it is bio-based with no phosphates or bleach????

I use the Cascade Platinum and have nothing but good things to say about them.  

Just to be clear, these both do an excellent job of cleaning the dishes. Excellent. We used to use Seventh Generation something something gel, but it was not nearly as good.

93gsxturbo said:

I use the Cascade Platinum and have nothing but good things to say about them.  

Cascade products have been the only ones I've been successful with my well water and my old houses terrible water. 

...herding cats.

... pushing rope

I do not need suggestions on detergents which clean better.

I seek understanding and remedy for a mysterious reaction with only filtered water, and not tap water, after a wash.

The foaming with filtered water is just physics.  It has to do with solubility.  When you add a surfactant to water, its effectiveness is directly related to things that are already dissolved in the water.  Filtered water has less stuff dissolved in it, so it requires less surfactant for the same reduction in surface tension.

So, if you have a tiny residual amount of soap in the glass, filling it with tap water would show fewer bubbles than filling it with filtered water.

It's the same reason you need more shampoo if your shower has hard water.  Growing up I could always tell when dad put more salt in the water softener because I would use my normal big gob of shampoo, but one morning every once in a while it took WAY longer to rinse it because the water was softer.

You can try a fun experiment at home.  Half-fill a water bottle with tap water and put in a drop of dish soap.  Shake it and see how tall the stack of bubbles is.  Now add a few teaspoons of vinegar and shake again.  Way fewer bubbles.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

The foaming with filtered water is just physics.  It has to do with solubility.  When you add a surfactant to water, its effectiveness is directly related to things that are already dissolved in the water.  Filtered water has less stuff dissolved in it, so it requires less surfactant for the same reduction in surface tension.

So, if you have a tiny residual amount of soap in the glass, filling it with tap water would show fewer bubbles than filling it with filtered water.

It's the same reason you need more shampoo if your shower has hard water.  Growing up I could always tell when dad put more salt in the water softener because I would use my normal big gob of shampoo, but one morning every once in a while it took WAY longer to rinse it because the water was softer.

Hey that makes sense!

Thanks.

So how do I get excess soap out? I can't add less since they are packets.

Actually, I could break open the packet and throw away like 1/5th of it I guess. I think the latter and current packets are homogenous.

I don't see a way to just add an extra rinse cycle, and running it either on or off sanitize, going from auto to normal wash, don't seem to affect it.

I might experiment with different soaps?  You are wise to not use a rinse aid.  It is a surfactant itself designed to help water sheet instead of bead.

I use Cascade liquid (or the generic equivalent).  I had to experiment with how much to put in.  Not enough = dirty dishes.  Too much = white residue all over things.

tuna55 said:

So how do I get excess soap out? I can't add less since they are packets.

I think you're supposed to just bite off a corner and drink what you don't want to use.

As a chemist who makes household cleaners...Curtis is dead right about the reason behind the foam. Even if you have "soft" water from the tap, there is still a higher level of dissolved minerals in it than in the filtered. 

few thoughts...

They are correct about phosphate restrictions seriously handicapping the ability to make effective dishwashing detergents with current surfactant technology.

That does seem like an excess of surfactant residue. I wonder if it's a result of reduced water volume from and eco setting or water-saving design. It's amazing how closely machine design and detergent design are connected. If it concerns you, you might look to see if the machine manual recommends a particular detergent. Or call their CS hotline and ask.

Dosed delivery is great...when it's the right dose. When it's not....

Rinse aids are a different type of surfactant, but aren't inherently bad or good. Depends on a lot of factors. In an optimal system they migrate off the surfaces with water as it sheets off so they don't leave residue. But all systems aren't optimal.

Foam is not an indication of performance but most consumers sure think it is. Is also takes very little of some surfactants to make foam - like low PPM. There are some surfactants that exist just to add foaming to otherwise great-performing cleaning formulas. 

I had a thought.

Any way to put a filter on the hot supply for the dishwasher?  Water with less solutes will do a better job rinsing things off in the dishwasher.  More "space" to dissolve stuff makes it a better solvent.

Bosch dishwasher 23+ years old check

whole house water conditioning system check

DWr not washing like it used to .....the little door(pod ejector) flipper thingy no worky check

New part on order check

Will inform of my progress check 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I had a thought.

Any way to put a filter on the hot supply for the dishwasher?  Water with less solutes will do a better job rinsing things off in the dishwasher.  More "space" to dissolve stuff makes it a better solvent.

That's an interesting thought. What sort of inexpensive filter?

This 3M system is designed for whole-house, but you can do the whole thing for about $100.  $75 for the housing, $30 for the filters.

This one is designed for under-sink mounting and costs around $100 as well.

Couldn't find a temperature rating for either one, but worth some research maybe.