1 2 3
jwdmotorsports
jwdmotorsports Reader
7/16/08 1:53 p.m.
John Brown wrote: I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the P.C police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this... I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like “engineer” etc etc... for your little descriptions or whatever in the avatars. I myself do not have an engineer, nor am I an engineering teacher or engineerish, but I feel sensitivity for people with engineering as I am a student taking engineering classes, and my Girlfriend is pursuing her masters in the field. These terms although I'm pretty sure are not even real words, are obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe people with morality-legality impairments, and it appears that they are used on these boards in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of people who are afflicted with engineered disabilities.

What?!?

I have a Mechanical Engineering degree for what it's worth.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/08 2:01 p.m.

Second longest running joke on the board.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/16/08 2:05 p.m.

American Isuzu Motors Inc. (AIMI) was Isuzu's US subsidiary. Rodeos were made here in the States from components sourced worldwide, with sheet metal etc made here in the States. Not too different from the British 'CKD' (Completely Knocked Down) export stuff which spawned cars like David Wallen's Innocenti Cooper. Some profit went to the country supplying the components, some stayed in the country of manufacture and sale. In both cases, the 'host' country got jobs.

That's how Honda etc got started here, they began to move more and more manufacturing here as demand grew. IIRC, an Accord built in Marysville now has something like 30% foreign content, mostly from Japan and China. I believe Honda has moved casting manufacture from Mexico to the US, but I could be wrong.

Harley was (and may still be) sourcing engine castings from Taiwan and electrical stuff from Japan, I have seen handlebar switches marked 'Cherry Switch', which is a big Japanese OE supplier. Buell uses Showa suspension components which are made in Japan. Honda is a majority owner of Showa meaning some of the profit from a Buell goes to Japan and to one of Harley's biggest competitiors. Come to think of it, Showa also supplies Harley forks etc. That's probably because (IIRC) there is no such thing as a US OE motorcycle suspension supplier.

Yeah, the lines are real blurry any more. It doesn't matter what you buy, some of the money goes overseas. Of course, it works the other way around as well. There was a big article (from the AP, I think) showing that Iran buys almost all of its kitchen appliances from the US. The story here had a picture of a woman in a burkha inspecting refrigerators which all had a big 'Made in USA' red white and blue flag across the front. Of course, that picture could have been taken in NYC.

Hey, Quasi: what's the longest running joke on the board? Other than me.

Josh
Josh Reader
7/16/08 2:09 p.m.
John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/08 2:21 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: Hey, Quasi: what's the longest running joke on the board? Other than me.

Me finishing a project.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/16/08 2:22 p.m.

Ya know, I just thought of something: that Ranger owner might not want to look real close at the tranny. If it's a manual, chances are it's Mazda sourced (very few had US sourced boxes) and if it's an automatic it was made in Strasbourg, France.

Woops.

Nashco
Nashco Dork
7/16/08 2:28 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: Harley was (and may still be) sourcing engine castings from Taiwan and electrical stuff from Japan... Yeah, the lines are real blurry any more. It doesn't matter what you buy, some of the money goes overseas.

Well, of course if you get down to the component level, it's damn near impossible to be 100% from any place in today's global market. Even if you had 100% US sourced components, then you could say that even though X was made in the US, it was made with Chinese steel (or used a circuit board from France, or whatever)...only the smallest of sales volumes (or highest of prices) could get things that specifically sourced.

jwdmotorsports wrote: I take it you work for an "American" () auto manufacturer. And yes, I work for a Japanese auto manufacturer.

Hmmm...more muddy waters. I work for a foreign owned American company...it's one of those awkward positions like when Chrysler was bought by (I mean...merged with) Daimler and the big 3 became the big 2.5, it's hard to say you're American when the Germans get the last say in your bidness. To further muddy the waters, we have plants in Mexico, Canada, and the US...some of our products are built in multiple plants, so you could have two identical products except one was built in the US and one in Mexico.

Bryce

jwdmotorsports
jwdmotorsports Reader
7/16/08 2:47 p.m.
Nashco wrote: Hmmm...more muddy waters. I work for a foreign owned American company...it's one of those awkward positions like when Chrysler was bought by (I mean...merged with) Daimler and the big 3 became the big 2.5, it's hard to say you're American when the Germans get the last say in your bidness. To further muddy the waters, we have plants in Mexico, Canada, and the US...some of our products are built in multiple plants, so you could have two identical products except one was built in the US and one in Mexico.

When it comes down to it I don't think there's any such thing as an "American" car anymore. Now it's just what is the highest percent "American". And it varies even within a given auto manufacturer.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/16/08 2:51 p.m.
Nashco wrote:
Jensenman wrote: Harley was (and may still be) sourcing engine castings from Taiwan and electrical stuff from Japan... Yeah, the lines are real blurry any more. It doesn't matter what you buy, some of the money goes overseas.
Well, of course if you get down to the component level, it's damn near impossible to be 100% from *any* place in today's global market. Even if you had 100% US sourced components, then you could say that even though X was made in the US, it was made with Chinese steel (or used a circuit board from France, or whatever)...only the smallest of sales volumes (or highest of prices) could get things that specifically sourced. Bryce

To further muddy the waters: China has been buying US scrap steel (and other metals) like crazy. So some of that Chinese steel could have been a Gremlin in a former life.

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/16/08 2:53 p.m.

Come on JWM and bryce, tell us who you work for.

Everyone here knows I work for Ford. And have the affliction of engineering that Mr Brown speaks of.

I'm torn by this, I'm not a big fan of supporting countries who have poor labor conditions, but can see why people buy cheap products...

Anyway, the only issue I have is that people DON'T buy American cars JUST becuase they are American cars. Our and GM's quality are right up there with everyone- both Toyota and Honda have their issues, too.

If you have a real reason- styling dislike, or that the car isn't what you want (few make a 1.6l Civic like car for the US). But discounting it just becuase it's American is bad form. If you think that, please tell me what you do and make, so that I can avoid your products, too (by logical extension, you product must suck, too).

Eric Happy to be employed by Ford. For at least two more weeks...

jwdmotorsports
jwdmotorsports Reader
7/16/08 2:54 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: To further muddy the waters: China has been buying US scrap steel (and other metals) like crazy. So some of that Chinese steel could have been a Gremlin in a former life.

I've been seeing a lot more trucks full of crushed cars than I used too. Suppose that's why?

I always look as I go by hoping not to see any interesting cars that have died.

jrw1621
jrw1621 New Reader
7/16/08 2:56 p.m.
jwdmotorsports wrote: What?!? I have a Mechanical Engineering degree for what it's worth.

How fast does your train go?

jwdmotorsports
jwdmotorsports Reader
7/16/08 2:59 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: Come on JWD and bryce, tell us who you work for.

Mine's in my profile. I work for Honda.

Just for the record outside of Japanese cars, I'm a blue oval guy.

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/16/08 3:21 p.m.
jrw1621 wrote:
jwdmotorsports wrote: What?!? I have a Mechanical Engineering degree for what it's worth.
How fast does your train go?

You're just jealous that you don't get the cool striped hat.

E-

aircooled
aircooled Dork
7/16/08 3:22 p.m.
John Brown wrote: ....I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like “engineer” etc etc... for your little descriptions or whatever in the avatars....

Hey, I have always wondered. What school is it that offers those Sanitation Engineering degrees anyway?

Nashco
Nashco Dork
7/16/08 3:23 p.m.

What fun would it be if I just told you outright? There's not a whole lot of automotive engineering going on in Portland, if you really care you'd figure it out real quick-like. Any of the Portland guys would already know as it's common knowledge out here.

FWIW, I've worked as an auto engineer for "all American" companies and foreign owned companies, all of them are public companies so really the only difference is some funny quirks of office politics and what kind of accent your bosses have, when it comes down to it everybody is trying to make a quality product that will generate profit. I don't really have any brand loyalty (be it cars, home appliances, radio stations, etc.), but I will say that years of working on them and a completely lackluster product offering (especially recently) has given me a serious distaste for Fords. Can we still be friends alfadriver?

Bryce

Nashco
Nashco Dork
7/16/08 3:26 p.m.

Oh yeah, and there's no way in hell I could work for the big 3 in Detroit. I have friends who do, and I worked for a supplier for a short while in the Detroit area...progress is waaaay too slow and politics run deep, I just didn't have the patience for it. It would take a really awesome project to get me back in Detroit. Well, that or a truckload of cash...

Bryce

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
7/17/08 7:13 a.m.
Nashco wrote: Oh yeah, and there's no way in hell I could work for the big 3 in Detroit. I have friends who do, and I worked for a supplier for a short while in the Detroit area...progress is waaaay too slow and politics run deep, I just didn't have the patience for it. It would take a really awesome project to get me back in Detroit. Well, that or a truckload of cash... Bryce

We can still be friends. You don't hate Ford just because it's an American car company- you have a real reason.

As for the slowness- if you watch real development, the actual speeds of taking vehicles to production is almost the same for all manufacturers. What you miss is the fact that many of the Japanese do more development on the powertrain before announcing that it will be in a car. Or just make very nice evolutionary changes.

New engines/transmissions take 4 years to do properly. It has to do with lead time to make the products + real test time to learn, and repeat at least 3 times before production starts. Toyota and Honda are quite clever in hiding this timing- but they did recently get caught- the new "CRX" is 5 years out since it's a pretty radical change....

Politics, OTOH... yikes.

Eric

captainzib
captainzib New Reader
7/17/08 8:10 a.m.

I believe my Toyota Camry was built in Kentucky, (somewhere in the USA anyway), and My Eagle Talon, well I think it was built in North America, (Canada maybe), but Japanese motor.

We live in a global economy, when are people gonna realise this and deal with it?

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/17/08 8:15 a.m.

Real Americans buy American cars...LOL poor "real Americans!" I guess all that good ol' American free-market capitalism only applies within the US huh?

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/17/08 9:33 a.m.

so where does my Saab fit into all this? I know my Fiat and Bimmer were both designed and built in Europe with little American influence.. but the Saab is the first of the GM saabs

16vCorey
16vCorey Dork
7/17/08 9:41 a.m.

I've got 6 German built VWs, one US build VW, A German built E30, a German built Porsche, a Japanese built motorcycle, and a Japanese built scooter. Guess I'm un-american. But I've never bought a new car in my life, and don't ever plan on it, so I probably don't matter that much in this argument.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/17/08 9:55 a.m.

I have bought three "New" American cars.

1988 Chevrolet Camaro - well worth the price of admission. Would own another one if I could find the right one.

2004 Dodge Stratus - technically I bought it used but it was a dealer loaner car and I let the dealer take the depreciation. We have 60K miles on it and it is a great appliance. Rear strut mounts and tires are the only pieces consumed.

2005 Chevrolet Cobalt - Hugely underrated car. I would buy another in a heartbeat.

twentyover
twentyover GRM+ Memberand New Reader
7/17/08 10:04 a.m.

Nashco-

Freightiner (or should I say DTNA?)? Worked there in the late 70's still have a buddy (who races a 510) who works there.

And I work for a Tier 1 who would then supply you

Worked for US, Japanese, and now French. The market is global, whether some moron believes it or not.

The guy making the comment to the OP- Where were his pants made? Non-american pants don't belong here.....

Don't like Chinese stuff? Stop shopping at Harbor Freight and WalMart

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/17/08 10:28 a.m.

You mean my Wen orbital polisher made not be Polish?

1 2 3

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
zshdpjvyuE1VB4EJUsIzlYmqzCCnd6NH0b6PyZg0Bk1glRqSEXmFou82ZfFXFz2d