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Donebrokeit
Donebrokeit Reader
11/1/11 12:05 p.m.

I have been keeping a lose eye on the event unfolding in Greece and I started wonder if and how the E.U could expel Greece from the E.U in order to save the rest of the union, what would happen to Greece they would have no currency and I do not think anyone would give them a credit line based on recent events.

I know this would be a HUGE blow to the E.U and would have a ripple effect around the world.

I know we have some very smart people on this board and felt this would be a good place to ask.

Paul B

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 Dork
11/1/11 12:21 p.m.

I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.

fromeast2west
fromeast2west New Reader
11/1/11 12:32 p.m.
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.

It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out).

So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!

NGTD
NGTD Dork
11/1/11 12:34 p.m.

There is already talk that if the referendum does not pass (which it is heavily expected to fail), that the EU will expel Greece.

Wow the mutual funds are going to take another E36 M3 - kicking today.

Cone_Junky
Cone_Junky HalfDork
11/1/11 12:36 p.m.
fromeast2west wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.
It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!

Imagine what we could charge the rest of them for every product that comes out of Silicone Valley! Please let us recede...

GrantMLS
GrantMLS Reader
11/1/11 12:39 p.m.

they would have to go back to trading in olives.. I dont liked the EU - but having the USSR re forming scares me more than anytghing going on in europe.

Osterkraut
Osterkraut SuperDork
11/1/11 12:42 p.m.
Cone_Junky wrote:
fromeast2west wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.
It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!
Imagine what we could charge the rest of them for every product that comes out of Silicone Valley! Please let us recede...

Not half as much as they'll charge you for little things like, oh, water and power!

pinchvalve
pinchvalve GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/1/11 12:43 p.m.

So Greece is out of the EU, they will have to liquidate assets to make money. I see a nice island in the Med for cheap in my future!

aircooled
aircooled SuperDork
11/1/11 12:45 p.m.

Either way, Greece NEEDS a huge slap in the face, and either way, they will get it!

I believe I recently heard Greece is trying to cut down on its austerity measures... DOH!

chuckles
chuckles Reader
11/1/11 12:48 p.m.

All I know is that "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis is a great, entertaining read and at least gives you the impression you've learned something. Sounds as if Ireland may be as desperate as Greece with some larger EU members not far behind. (France?) The choice seems to be between the failure of a lot of huge banks and the ruinous transfer of bad debt to the taxpayers through government "guarantees." Very scary stuff, happening right here too, of course.

Cone_Junky
Cone_Junky HalfDork
11/1/11 12:55 p.m.

In reply to chuckles:

Have you heard the latest Federal Employee Pension debt? Holy crap! Almost as much as Social Security (which at least funds itself...kinda). The taxpayers get the bill for federal pensions Of course that includes politicians, so I highly doubt they will participate in any type of reform of the system.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/1/11 1:04 p.m.
fromeast2west wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.
It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!

Y'all gonna starve to death without all of the cheap hydroelectric and wind energy we give you. Also there's that water importation thing.

Basil Exposition
Basil Exposition Reader
11/1/11 1:05 p.m.

This is part of an article in the UK Telegraph today. It is as much about the Greeks avoiding their own tax system as it does the bubble economy that they had based on govt handouts:

Something can’t be right when the modest city of Larisa, capital of the agricultural region of Thessaly with 250,000 inhabitants, has more Porsches per head of the population than New York or London.

Perhaps the penny – or the euro – is already dropping, because Professor Polemarchakis writes that Larissa “is the talk of the town in Stuttgart, the cradle of the German automobile industry, and, particularly, in the Porsche headquarters there”, since it “tops the list, world-wide, for the per-capita ownership of Porsche Cayennes”.

“The proliferation of Cayennes is a curiosity, given that farming is not a flourishing sector in Greece, where agricultural output generates a mere 3.2pc of Gross National Product (GNP) in 2009 – down from 6.65pc in 2000 – and transfers and subsidies from the European Commission provide roughly half of the nation’s agricultural income.

“A couple of years ago, there were more Cayennes circulating in Greece than individuals who declared and paid taxes on an annual income of more than 50,000 euros.”

aircooled
aircooled SuperDork
11/1/11 1:37 p.m.

I read a bit about the Porsche thing. Apparently it has a lot more to do with "borrowing more then you can afford" then "being rich because you don't pay taxes".

Cone_Junky
Cone_Junky HalfDork
11/1/11 1:42 p.m.

In reply to Javelin:

Us Californians will have to grow some balls so we could pollute and kill wildlife to generate our own electricity. But being the 8th largest economy in the world, I think CA will do just fine on our own. Maybe we could get the large population of unemployed and illegal immigrants to run on hamster wheels to generate power?

Basil Exposition
Basil Exposition Reader
11/1/11 2:00 p.m.
Cone_Junky wrote:
fromeast2west wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.
It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!
Imagine what we could charge the rest of them for every product that comes out of Silicone Valley! Please let us recede...

Hairlines recede, states secede. -- Hairless Texan

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
11/1/11 2:36 p.m.

I've been following the Greece thing. It's interesting. On the one hand, you have reality: Greece is not Germany. Tax fraud is a national pastime. On the other hand, you have very rich people who want a single government in Europe (for now) that they control (dictatorship). Through careful fiscal engineering, we have the Euro and a European government structure where taxing and spending are not controlled by the "elected" officials, but the shape of banana curves or minimum size of carrots is.

To answer your question of what would Greece do without the Euro, they would go back to what they have been doing for the past several thousand years: Use their own money. There are rumors that the bills are already printed. Greece has traditionally used fiat (it's money because I say it's money) money and run a nice inflation scam. Being locked into the Euro would never work. They just borrowed and gave it away like they always did, but they couldn't inflate their way out of it anymore.

Look at the parallels: In 1918, the entire continent was intertwined with "I got your back" treaties, like a big ball of spaghetti. It took one little peon arch duke getting capped to trigger off a call on those treaties and a good chunk of the continent (and people) got turned to crap. Today, the entire continent (and rest of the world) is intertwined with financial "I got your back" treaties, like a big ball of spaghetti. If you don't follow it close, you'll not recognize CDS, CDO, MBS acronyms. It is a huge mess, including the U.S. financial system. A short analogy: Greece borrows 1billion euros (dollars, whatever) at 3% interest (not today, a year or two ago). The loaner (buyer of the bond) purchases insurance on that bond, so that if Greece doesn't pay, the insurance company will. That buyer is your pension fund. The insurance company is Goldman Sachs, who then buys insurance from someone else (Barclays, some German bank, etc.) on the insurance they sold your pension fund. The next bank buys insurance on that insurance, etc. At each junction, banks and bank like institutions take a little slice of the pie to pay themselves big bonuses (which the OWS monkeys or "useful idiots" have keyed in on). Now, what happens if Greece doesn't pay the loan back? They never have before. Well, then a chain of 8 bank like institutions goes under as each tries to get the capital together to repay your pension fund. Other banks won't do business with them because, hey, they got no money to pay your pension fund, how are they gonna cover these Portuguese bonds? The chain reaction would spread (they think) across the whole world and the whole world economy would grind to a halt.

This is why Greece was not bankrupted. Instead, they (the EU) rearranged the Titanic's deck chairs and said that your pension fund loosing 50% of the Greek bond value was not a default, which would trigger the insurance policy chain reaction, but instead just a minor rearrangement of terms or something and your pension fund had to agree to that, or else lose it all.

Meanwhile, the Germans are reminding everyone that the continent could go back to war again pretty easy. After all, Europeans have been killing each other for >1K years, why stop now? Under that threat, everyone looks the other way while Greece pretends to intend to do something about borrowing more money and never paying it back. The EU pretends that borrowing more money is the sure fire way to fix too much debt. Goldman Sachs pretends everything is great and sends its top executives to be top Obama administration officials.

Now, we pickin' on the People's Republic of California too? I lived there 18 years before escaping. Let 'em go, please.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Dork
11/1/11 2:48 p.m.
Cone_Junky wrote:
fromeast2west wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: I've been suggesting that we kick California out of the U.S. for years, but a lot of people are resistant to the idea.
It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!
Imagine what we could charge the rest of them for every product that comes out of Silicone Valley! Please let us recede...

...but enough about the price of porn DVDs made in Van Nuys and sold in Dallas and Atlanta, what about all that computer stuff that is designed in the 'Silicon' Valley.

Cone_Junky
Cone_Junky HalfDork
11/1/11 2:54 p.m.

They have computers up there too?

I guess Debbie does DOS and Stick it in your Linux makes more sense now

DoctorBlade
DoctorBlade Dork
11/1/11 3:03 p.m.
fromeast2west wrote: It would be awesome if you kicked us out. We're one of the countries biggest net payers in taxes (as opposed to states that take in more funding than they pay out). So we'll just keep our money for ourselves, change you to use our ports, and team up with the Eastern states to sell you all your medicine and technology. .. and you'll have less money to pay for it because we won't have to follow your Texan based governments uneven tax distribution schemes!!

I'm waiting for it to kick in that California can't pay for it's pension schemes without massive tax hikes.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
11/1/11 3:09 p.m.

I love it when Hess posts stuff like that

mndsm
mndsm SuperDork
11/1/11 3:16 p.m.
4cylndrfury wrote: I love it when Hess posts stuff like that

Best thing i've read all day.

integraguy
integraguy SuperDork
11/1/11 3:27 p.m.

I was watching a news show on PBS this afternoon, called European Journal....I think. Anyway, the focus of most of the show today was the situation in Greece. One thing they showed was the impact the austerity cuts are having on primary and secondary education. In many towns, the education funding from the "state" government has already been cut back so far that many students don't have all the required books they need. In coming years, the "state" has decided that textbooks will be "printed" on CD-ROMS and if your family can't afford at least one computer so you can do your homework...well, too bad. Already, some schools are having to photo-copy textbooks to give to students. HOWEVER, it was admitted, that Greece has TWICE as many kids as Finland's school system has...but FOUR times as many teachers, and Finland's students are BETTER educated. So yes, at least in the education system, there is a huge beauracracy(sp?) that needs trimming...but the unions will not allow it to happen. It is said that ALL of Greece is top-heavy with public service employees, also the reason why these protests are so large and so highly-charged.

oldsaw
oldsaw SuperDork
11/1/11 4:09 p.m.
integraguy wrote: It is said that ALL of Greece is top-heavy with public service employees, also the reason why these protests are so large and so highly-charged.

I have read numerous reports that Greece's public sector employment is 50% of total, national employment. Government pension plans have evolved into bloated, generous and unsustainable money pits and the current beneficiaries (it seems) would rather lose it all instead of getting something for future generations. Sound familiar?

Greece has an honourable and deserved place in the annals of history. If the country (and the other PIIGS members) don't get their act together, there's still a "special place" reserved for them - just below that of leper colonies.

And kudos to Hess for placing everything in a pretty darn accurate historical and current context.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Dork
11/1/11 4:11 p.m.
DoctorBlade wrote: I'm waiting for it to kick in that California can't pay for it's pension schemes without massive tax hikes.

Ya, I was kind of curious how that was glossed over.

We recorded 50% higher gross profits than anyone else! (don't mind the fact we are still swimming in red)

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