What Dog Food?

Thank you, Doc. Wish I could upvote this twice. 

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for weighing in, Doc!  Thank you for being well-informed on the topic of nutrition.  It seems many vets, and even doctors that treat humans ignore the profound influence of diet upon health.  Thank you for not being one of them.

My vet cited exactly the same reason for her recommendation of Purina ProPlan, Science Diet, and Royal Canin, which makes me feel a little better about what our dog is getting, both in terms of food and veterinary care.

Thanks again!

That is a GREAT post, Doc.  I do disagree with the AVMA's stance on raw.  The AVMA is, of course, going to recommend the absolute most caution because they need to cover their butts.  If they recommend raw and some dogs die, they look bad.  If they recommend Ol Roy and every dog dies of old age at 60% of their life expectancy, it was just their time to go.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist (well, maybe a little, but not in this case) but there is also a money trail here.  The AVMA is there in part to support the animal care businesses which DO get money from the sale of commercial dog foods, and the AVMA does get lobbied/influenced by animal feed reps. 

If the AVMA recommends Blue Buffalo and dogs die, it's Blue Buffalo's fault.  If the AVMA recommends raw and dog's die, it's a PR nightmare for AVMA.  It's the same reason the AMA recommends against Sushi and a medium-rare NY strip for humans, but I'm sure some of them go out after work and eat a seared rare tuna steak and a salad (which, statistically is more likely to have E. coli than undercooked meat)

I'll try to find a link, but it has been 15 years since I did this research.  At the time, I found a reputable source that cited how a growing majority of veterinarians disagree with AVMA on the raw.  It wasn't a majority, but I seem to recall 40-some percent of vets polled disagreed with AVMA on that stance.  I didn't feed raw because of wolves or grain.  I actually included grain in my recipe, just not corn gluten meal.

I'm really not saying everyone needs to feed raw, nor am I saying I'm right and Gravy Train is wrong, I'm just providing a counterpoint.  My stance on it is "your pet, your choice."

But, I must say, that was a very well-researched and thought-out post.  You obviously know your stuff and care about it.  I particularly enjoyed the genetic statistics.  I agree that dogs are not wolves.  I remember laughing out loud at that one dog food commercial where it shows a pack of wolves running in a snow-covered forest, and as one of them jumps over a log it turns into this big, dopey Golden Retriever running to a food bowl.  I laughed and everyone just kinda looked at me.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for the comprehensive write up.  I have a friend who has been following the cardiac issues associated with grain free food and am rather dumbfounded that some of the worst offenders are still being sold.  I had Pro Plan recommended to me and was doing fine until they just started turning their nose up at it.  Unfortunately, one is still turning her nose up at virtually everything except people food.  So, as I posted earlier, I'm thinking a vet visit may be in order this week.  But, with the pandemic, that idea is has it's own issues.  My vet is a cancer patient and cannot see clients.  Going to have to find an interim.  

In the meantime, I am thinking of possibly going the raw meat route to see if that sparks an interest.  I understand the risk of salmonella.  So, is there any reason not to just cook everything?

Funny thing about Pro Plan:  A couple years ago, my eldest went on an overnight, "behind-the-scenes" field trip to the Cincinnati Zoo and as part of the tour, they went through the kitchen area.  They've got stacks and stacks of Pro Plan there and they basically said that it was an amazing food that they'd feed to a large number of the mammals in the place as a supplement or filler.  They keep a stockpile of it, they said, because if the raw meat delivery for the lions or whatever didn't show up for whatever reason they could give them just the dog food or a day or two and it would have pretty much everything they needed in the short-term.

Tractor Supply carries many brands, including science diet. They are usually a few bucks cheaper than pet stores. I figure many people wouldn't think to look there. 

carzan said:

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

In the meantime, I am thinking of possibly going the raw meat route to see if that sparks an interest.  I understand the risk of salmonella.  So, is there any reason not to just cook everything?

 

The same reason when you eat raw carrots you're getting more beneficial nutrients than cooked carrots.  Cooking food is safer and tastes better, but it physically alters the chemistry.  That water you cooked the carrots in is orange for a reason. In the case of vegetables, the first to go are the water-soluble vitamins.  The ones that aren't rinsed away are physically changed into basic acids when cooked.  Many of the fat soluble nutrients are very susceptible to turning into something else with heat. 

While I completely agree with dogs not being wolves, their digestive system is set up to digest raw meat.  Humans developed cooking techniques so long ago that we have migrated away from that.  Dogs can't cook and never could.  Many people do raw because if they were to let their Dachshund run wild, it would eat a dead squirrel, or catch an eat a mouse or a frog.  They are responding to typical wild-dog instinct, but we have bred them so far away from actual wild dogs that it shouldn't be confused with what they should actually eat.  In the process of making domesticated dogs, we have left their kill-and-eat instinct, but changed their chemistry and genetics away from that being an actually viable diet.

I will also say, though, Canis familiarus is a strange human invention with its own unique digestive system that is neither wolf nor human, so randomly throwing a raw London Broil at your Doberman isn't the key, but neither is giving them commercial beef-scented, shelf-stable, corn gluten meal nuggets.

Dog food is actually a relatively recent invention.  As recently as the early 1900s, it was not even really heard of.  Just as Ken-L Ration started gaining success being the only game in town, the war hit and they stopped production.  It wasn't until the 50s that commercial dog food really became a thing.  My grandmother always fed her dogs table scraps because dog food in her paradigm was a ritzy thing like going to a restaurant.  As a simple farm girl, she found the idea of buying dog food to be frivolous and just for rich people.  Kibble (even the good stuff) is made by mixing the ingredients, extruding them under intense heat, then dried to be shelf-stable.  It's not even just that it's cooked, it's cooked very hot.

If you wanted to get raw and cook it for your dog, it will still be light years better than most kibble if you include the right ingredients.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

She ate raw ground beef last night, no problem.  This morning she wasn't as enthusiastic, but I think she ate it all.  Thinking I may try mixing in some dry to supplement, unless someone tells me this is a bad way to go.  Thanks!

Hills Science diet is what our dog loves.  Goes insane when it's time to eat, you would think we were starving him.

Steve_Jones said:

Tractor Supply carries many brands, including science diet. They are usually a few bucks cheaper than pet stores. I figure many people wouldn't think to look there. 

For our Great Danes there was a bunch of info read (hopefully true) about the balance of carbs, protein, fat, and calories that really narrowed the choices of foods to select from.  We also supplement with a glucosamine Chondroitin having had great luck with that perking up our older pets joint pain.  We HAD been feeding a blend of Nutro and Rachel Ray Nutrish, the Nutrish will get swapped out following Floating Doc's info on lentils and peas.  Tractor Supply has a great food selection and better prices that anywhere we have found.

Love GRM for having discussions like these.

I'm blown away to learn the Taste of the Wild food I have been giving my dogs is not good for them. Well, live and learn but I'll be changing out their food gradually when this bag gets low.

My dogs love the Purina SmartBlend (I think that's the name) Turkey and Venison, but it gives them the most rancid gas, seriously could gag a maggot on a vomit truck. Generally speaking, are there particular ingredients that cause dog farts?

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Could be the food, but there's other things to consider. Is this a brachycephalic breed (short face, like a bulldog, French bulldog, boxer, Shih Tzu, etc.)? 
 

Those dogs swallow a lot of air when they eat. Some brands take that into account by making kibble of a specific size and shape, as well as specific ingredients (Royal Canin), tailored and sold for individual breeds.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Taylor is generic mid-size pound pup and Bella is a Pit / Lab mix. Both are around 63 lbs.

While we're on the subject of feeding dogs, I would like to mention that you should NOT use elevated food and water bowls.  
 

These have been marketed for years (and still are) as a way to lower risk of gastric bloat, when actually there was a huge, very comprehensive study showing a definite increase of bloat risk published more than 25 years ago. 
 

The ONLY exceptions would be a dog with megaesophagus or one with a spinal injury of the neck. Still going to have the increased risk, but it's a quality of life choice. 

Askpet said:

Before giving your dog any people food, do your research to make sure it's safe. Never feed your dog toxic human items such as: chocolate, onions, grapes, raisins. Bland Diet for Dogs is very good, when an owner sees the sign of vomiting, diarrhea etc.

Canoe.

But stepdad's mom used to feed her little dog (one of those <20lb breeds) chocolates and salads all the time.  She loved Italian dressing on the salads, apparently.  Was horrified to learn this, but by this time the dog had ten years of chocolate and no end in sight.

She also used to love running around with a cigarette dangling from her mouth!

Lots of people foods that can cause problems in dogs. Don't forget garlic as well as onions. And chocolate toxicity, like any toxin, is all about the dose. I've seen dogs die from chocolate.

Here’s an article from veterinarypartner.com, excellent resource for a web search. 

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Oh, that was drilled into my head from an early age, don't give dogs people food, especially chocolate.

Part of me wonders if she survived because she wss bred so far away from wolves that it wasn't immediately fatal.  And, well, alcohol is a poison to people and dogs and people drink it, and I have known dogs that really enjoyed beer...

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

It's all about the dosage. The amount of theobromine and methylxanthine per body weight is what matters, and that amount varies greatly between types of chocolate. 

One ounce of 60% cocoa (the concentration that's in the chocolate chips that I bake with) would cause vomiting and diarrhea in a 30 pound dog, but that same amount in a 10 pound dog would cause tremors and seizures.

One veterinarian I know told me that he learned from personal experience that it's possible for a human to eat enough dark chocolate to develop a cardiac arrhythmia.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Yup... I feel funny after about two Snickers, which is probably .005% cocoa 

When you buy food for your dog from online websites like Chewy, Petcarerx, Petco etc, make sure to choose the brands do not linked to DCM. In my opinion, Royal Canin, Science Diet, and Purina Pro plan are the best ones. You can also check the list of other dog food brands that the FDA recommends to avoid DCM.

My pup gets Science Diet (large puppy) as well. He's coming up on being a year old soon, so we'll be looking to change soon too. For us, it can be a struggle to find a quality food that's LOW in protein, as suggested by our breeder and vet to help avoid the problem of stones, which can be an issue in Dalmatians. We have a unique situation, but the boutique/raw brands that have meat as the first ingredient would never work for us. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

• Any of the Mars brands. Yes, the candy company is a big player in veterinary medicine. (Royal Canin, which I feed at my house, Waltham, Nutro, and a bunch of others).

Just to add:  Nestle is also heavily involved in pet food, since they own Purina and some smaller local brands like Merrick.

Following this discussion we landed on Blue Diamond Naturals Large Breed that Tractor Supply Carries.  Good food and reasonable at $34 for 40lbs.  The Dane dorks love it and had no issues getting them switched over.

Funny this post comes up now...

Since we brought her home in 2014, our dog Holly was eating Diamond lamb and rice food that was dirt cheap from Tractor Supply. Not the greatest, but she liked it, and the vet was OK with it. This summer, we noticed her belly skin turning dark (it's usually pink) and she was beginning to get lethargic. Vet said to change her food, and to try a "senior" food now that she's older. After looking at reviews, we tried Nutro lamb and rice senior food. In less than a week, her stomach turned back to normal and she's got as much energy now as she did when she was a year old! She's been on that ever since and she LOVES it. It's nuts how a simple change in food can affect things.