In reply to Datsun310Guy :
The build thread.
Slightly stalled at the moment.
I have been tracking hours and costs for the Fossil repower in a spread sheet, just for fun. I can post it if anyone has an interest.
In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :
I don't even want to know how much paint it took to make that bus look nice.
When Mrs. Snowdoggie complains about the time and money I burn up on my tiny little 16 foot motorhome, I am going to show her this thread and start talking about trading for an old bus.
The parts quality is an issue but I can see it from the companies point of view.
If you're going to tool up and make a repop part, you're going to sell hundreds, maybe thousands if you're lucky. There's not much margin to spend on quality control at that point so why bother. If someone only puts a couple thousand miles on their car and the factory parts were good for 40,000 miles but yours only last 10,000, that still gives plenty of time to get it out of warranty. If it fails inside the warranty period, just give the customer a new one.
It sucks but that's how it's done.
I've had nothing but trouble from replacement condensers. The white-box, offshore ones are junk. If the one that's in there is working, leave it alone. If it fails I replace it with a Ford or Chevy unit from Mallory because theirs are the only good ones at $15 each.
It's bad enough that I have a known good condenser with alligator clips on it that I can just piggyback on the system to see if it fixes the ignition problem. It's the first thing I try now.
As for the electronic conversions. I've had them fail at an alarming rate lately. A points distributor is rarely so out of whack that it can't get you home.
Same issues with any aftermarket bits. Domestic V8 guys love their roller rocker conversions. The OEM stamped steel ones manage to go 300,000+ miles without issue but nobody can give me a life expectancy on needle bearings that are being used in the worst way possible, not getting a full revolution so the load is always in the same spot. Plus, oil pumps don't like stray needles.
It's almost like those engineers at the OEMs know what they're doing.
Oh I completely appreciate the way a talented person/shop can do top dollar work. But when it comes to my own enjoyment, a good moto as ddavidv alluded to is...
"don't let perfect get in the way of good enough".
Which is often the opposite goal of restoration lol.
I think too many of us came from a place where we believed 'restoration' was the only avenue one should take.
Nowadays, we have 'revival', 'refurbishment', 'recommission', 'restomod' and any number of other alternatives.
Having done one of those 80% restorations (and decided that last 20% wasn't worth my effort) was a good education. I had a very pretty car that looked better than it was and drove decently. It was also reliable, despite being Italian. But I also found it something of a PITA, constantly fussing over keeping it clean and worrying about it getting damaged any time it was outside of the garage.
The biggest expense of any car restoration is paint and body work. If one can remove (or ignore) that portion, often the world is your oyster. Now you can buy a more interesting/expensive car to enjoy. As they say, buy the best example you can afford instead of trying to find a 'cheap' one to fix up. Too many people ignore that advice when they see that desired car for $500 (or, $2500 nowadays). Sweat equity is cheap, right? Sure...and it's also several years of your life, most likely. Years you'll be staring at the carcass torn apart in your garage vs driving the thing.
Hey, I get it. The process is the hobby. I didn't buy my last few projects because I needed more vehicles. I bought them because I wanted something to work on. But they have all been made road-worthy in weeks/months, not years. While not instant gratification I do get to see much more progress in a short time span.
Nothing wrong with doing a ground up restoration, if that is your thing. But most of us aren't REALLY capable of doing it, shouldn't think we are, and really should try the alternatives first.
I also understand why a lot of restoration shops tend to view projects as "all or nothing" deals. They don't want to put out an 80% car as that car is now a rolling advertisement of their work. And it's not like the shop can put a disclaimer on the car for all to see: "Yeah... there are some flaws here, but this is what the owner was willing/could afford to pay for..." Instead, the car now looks like an example of the shop's workmanship.
Parts quality..... grrr..
One of the cool things with an old Jeep is you can basically open up a catalog and order 1 of everything. The problem is so much of it is absolute junk.
This shift boot is about 2 years old and has seen zero sunlight and use. It was literally bolted to the trans cover and set on the shelf and it turned completely hard and brittle in a short period of time. Im not sure if it was made out of rubber or playdoh.
In reply to logdog (Forum Supporter) :
Oh man, I can't find a good aftermarket rubber shift boot to save my life. I've gone through tons of them over the last few years. They all tear like that. Pull a stock one from a 35 year old camaro and it's hard but no breaks/leaks.
iansane said:In reply to logdog (Forum Supporter) :
Oh man, I can't find a good aftermarket rubber shift boot to save my life. I've gone through tons of them over the last few years. They all tear like that. Pull a stock one from a 35 year old camaro and it's hard but no breaks/leaks.
bad rubber is endemic to the classic car market. No idea why?
NOHOME said:iansane said:In reply to logdog (Forum Supporter) :
Oh man, I can't find a good aftermarket rubber shift boot to save my life. I've gone through tons of them over the last few years. They all tear like that. Pull a stock one from a 35 year old camaro and it's hard but no breaks/leaks.
bad rubber is endemic to the classic car market. No idea why?
/Cliff Claven voice// Well, Norm, that's not rubber. It's a flaked and formed..., I don't know, rubber-like substance.
/Heart of Gold// It always managed to make a substance that was almost, but not entirely, unlike tea.
Continuing this morning.
Yesterday, while the dash was out, the customer asked that we check all the electrics too, to be sure the lights were all working properly and such, because he tours this car a lot.
Everything is working well now but we found that the heater blower motor makes an awful racket, sounds like the bushings are shot. We've priced out a new blower motor for him.
I'm currently taping off the paint around the windscreen opening in case we slip with the trim tool, we don't want to scratch it. I'm also waiting for sealant to arrive because we want to back up the rubber seal with a bit of sealant because the wind will inevitably force some water past and cause rust. I also need some urethane to glue the side trims back on because they have been modified previously and the posts on the back have been cut off because someone couldn't get them to fit properly the last time. I will also need to glue the rear view mirror button back onto the glass.
This is a FHC so more work than a convertible.
I also spent yesterday afternoon installing richer needles in the carburetors because the ones that were installed by the carb rebuilder are too lean. I could have the car idle well but run poorly at speed or run great at speed but have no power at idle. The needles put in 50 years ago aren't calibrated for modern fuel.
NOHOME said:bad rubber is endemic to the classic car market. No idea why?
OEMs have been getting worse too. Everything rubber on my wife's 30 year old E30 is still soft and supple. I replaced the windshield a few years ago and was just shocked at how nice the gasket was. My friend at the BMW dealer told me modern BMW exterior rubber bits turn to dust unless you are a fanatic about protectants.
On the restoration topic, I have a friend with a gorgeous Ferrari 512. Dark blue on tan. It has been at Classic Coach in Elizabeth NJ for (checks watch) coming up on 2 years now for a 'light mechanical refresh'. The while-your-in-theres spiraled out of control early, then they discovered that a 'respected' shop put 6 of the wrong pistons in the car many years ago and fooled with the cam timing to keep the valves from hitting the pistons! I understand that the engine is finally going back together now.
I can't imagine what all this will cost. I once asked the service writer how they bill really long restorations (you can practically show up with a dented data plate and a grainy black and white photograph and leave with a car if you're patient enough). He told me they bill people monthly.
Currently lapping and installing valves in cylinder assemblies for a 1908 Ford Model S.
It's just had a couple thousand dollar bill for sleeving four cylinders. The last person to rebuild the engine didn't tighten the pinch bolts on the small end of the connecting rod enough so the pin walked out and scored the cylinders badly.
Glass is in the Jag. Only took two tries to get the windscreen and the "just a bit too small" gasket to work together.
Trim goes on Monday.
In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :
I will add it to the fossil story.
It took me most of two days to replace the gaskets on the back windows on Sanford. In a shop, 2 people, 2 days, is 32 man hours plus the cost of the gasket. Call it $3000+
There is a flip side to this thread. Called "Why it is so hard to make money doing restorations"
There is a lot of standing still time that I would not be comfortable passing on to the client. This can include time when the car is occupying shop/hoist space while waiting for parts or even searching for parts that are rare. Shop space is $$$ and stalled projects eat into profits fast.
The one I struggle with is "head scratching time". Example would be this chassis rail repair section I just did for the Riley
In place, it looks like a pretty simple piece of tin. However, that nice swoopy swage that is needed to fit the floorpan, took a while to figure out how to make with tools at hand since it had to be a pretty accurate recreation. Made a test piece. Re-calibrated and fabricated a tool, do another test piece and then fabricate the actual panel and adjust the fit as needed.
Since I operate on an assumption of competency, I only count the hours it took to fabricate the actual part that ends up on the car. Head scratching, tool fabrication, trials and failed efforts cant be counted since the owner is entitled to assume that I have the skill level and tooling to this kind of work. If I were a business and I was paying a worker to do this, his time would be billed to me for the whole effort regardless of how much head scratching the person had to do. How much can I pass on to the client?
^This.
Time spent fixing rusty pinch welds, making sure it won't leak after, etc.
I recently went through paying a body shop that does restoration work for a complete colour change, some minor bodywork, and assembly on my Prelude.
I gave the car to them pretty well stripped, just a rolling shell. I had removed the side glass. It was a never winter driven car from southern California.
We found some poorly repaired prior collision damage that ended up requiring replacement of the front core support. They also replaced the windshield, painted the trim (I have like 5 sets I've collected over the years and gathered the best ones), rolled the fenders, did some custom shaving/plastic welding on the bumper, and installed the side windows.
I paid $11k Canadian for everything, this was in 2018.
I painted the interior and re-assembled it.
It's been an interesting experience. The paint has a bunch of weird blemishes popping through that seem to be rust? But there wasn't rust there before. It's like rail dust or something under the paint blooming through. Car still looks great, but I know it's there and it bothers me. It's not worth paying to have fixed, because blending would be a bitch and the alternative is pulling the glass out again.
It's a strange relationship where the car is too nice for me to enjoy driving it for fear of damage, but I'm also a bit upset that it's not perfect. I've used half a tank of fuel since I last filled it up in 2019.
Pic from this past Wednesday, when I drove it to work to swap on the storage wheels.
Run_Away said:It's been an interesting experience. The paint has a bunch of weird blemishes popping through that seem to be rust? But there wasn't rust there before. It's like rail dust or something under the paint blooming through.
Sounds like it could be micro blisters. It can be caused by contaminants on the primer before the paint was applied, like water moisture or oil or something.
In reply to NOHOME :
I would disagree with you about this being non billable time, or at least I'd say it should be billable in a commercial setting.
Even though you spend time scratching your head figuring it out because you haven't done this specific vehicle and panel combination, you have the knowledge and experience needed to figure it out. Not everyone has the knowledge and experience to figure it out, so you should be compensated for that part of the job.
In my field we call that time NRE (non-recurring engineering), and it's part of having someone manufacture a new design. There are fixtures, processes, and tools required the first time something is done. Sometimes companies will just absorb the NRE, but that situation usually happens when cost is low enough and volumes are high enough for them to justify the cost in exchange for future revenue.
No Time said:In reply to NOHOME :
In my field we call that time NRE (non-recurring engineering),
I love that idea , it is hard to item list all the stupid things that need fixing on their car , it looks like you are nitpicking , but its impossible to know until you get into the job !
In reply to No Time :
Ran and R&D department for 17 years. I know all about NRE from both ends and many atime it has been the deal breaker for some project plans. But I also want to make these projects happen and NRE would have doubled the cost and killed the goose. The benefit to me is that I can cherry pic projects and clients that are interesting to me. I don't lose $$$ and I get to develop my skills without spending money on my own projects.
A commercial shop would have to charge over $100/hour in my hood to recover all cost. I don't really care if I get it wrong and have to do it again.
This morning I'm back on the 1908 Ford Model S.
I got the cylinders back from the machine shop last week, valves have been lapped and installed.
We had to have the cylinders sleeved because two piston pins slipped out and scored cylinder walls. Someone used Model T aluminum pistons in this engine which is perfectly fine except the small end of the S rod has to be bushed to work with the smaller T piston pins.
There is no lock ring in these pistons, they just rely on the pinch bolt on the small end to keep the pin from walking out.
This morning was spent machining the pins slightly shorter to allow me to put telfon buttons on the ends of the pins, then making the buttons for the pins.
I'm currently fitting the rods to the crankshaft. These are babbitt bearing rods so I have to add and remove shims to get the clearance I want. The clearance is set at "tight but not too tight".
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