ICYMI: GR Corolla ticks all the boxes

David S.
By David S. Wallens
Apr 2, 2022 | Toyota

The WRX STi isn’t dead after all, except that Toyota will take over production.

The forthcoming Toyota GR Corolla sends its 300 horsepower through a six-speed manual box to all four wheels.

Full release below, but you’ve probably memorized it by now:

1.6L, 3-cylinder direct/port injected turbo engine delivers 300 hp and 273 pound-feet of torque

GR-Four AWD system with customizable front-rear power settings

Available in two grades: Core and launch-year-exclusive Circuit Edition

Born from rally racing and tested to meet the highest standards set by master driver Akio Toyoda and professional TOYOTA GAZOO Racing drivers

Genuine Toyota sportscar, precision built at the GR Factory at Toyota’s Motomachi Plant

Complimentary 1-year membership to the National Auto Sport Association, featuring a High-Performance Driving Event with expert instruction

LONG BEACH, Calif. (March 31, 2022) – It’s official: The powerful, stylish and agile hot hatch U.S. drivers are looking for is on its way, the first-ever 2023 GR Corolla. With the detail-obsessed TOYOTA GAZOO Racing team at the helm, and master driver Akio Toyoda, a.k.a. Morizo, signing off on approval, this all-new addition to Toyota’s growing lineup of sports cars brings the performance, handling and functionality that hot hatch fans love.

Powered by the lightweight, compact-yet-powerful G16E-GTS turbo-charged, direct/port injected three-cylinder engine, GR Corolla delivers 300 hp and 273 lb.-ft. of torque. Engineered for snappy acceleration out of the corners, output hits peak torque at 3000-5500 rpm, with max horsepower coming at 6500 rpm. Its thrill-inducing power is piped through a unique triple exhaust that’s designed to reduce backpressure for maximum power delivery.

The G16-E engine is paired with Toyota’s rally developed GR-Four All-Wheel-Drive (AWD) drivetrain. This system gives drivers a choice of 60-40, 50-50 or 30-70 power distribution to the front and rear wheels. GR Corolla will be offered exclusively in a manual transmission, staying true to its hands-on rally racing roots.

Its broad hatch profile and low center of gravity are built on Toyota’s GA-C platform, with enhanced frame reinforcements developed specifically for GR Corolla at GR Factory at Toyota Motomachi plant. Functional exterior air vents and aerodynamic features further support steering stability.

GR Corolla will come in two grades, Core and Circuit Edition.

The Core Grade will be available later this year in white, black and Supersonic Red. It will have a color keyed roof with rear lip spoiler, GR-Four stamped side rockers and wide-fender flares. On the inside, seating for five will come with GR logoed fabric sport seats.

The Circuit Edition will be a limited-run model available in 2023. Standard colors are white, Supersonic Red and Heavy Metal with the same GR-Four stamped side rockers and wide fenders as the Core. It adds a forged carbon fiber roof, vented bulge hood and a sporty rear spoiler, Brin Naub® suede-trimmed sport seats with red accents and a launch-year-exclusive Morizo signed shift knob.

The GR Corolla will come equipped with the all-new touchscreen Toyota Audio Multimedia system.

Pricing will be announced later this year

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Comments
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David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
3/31/22 10:32 p.m.

So, guesses as to MSRP? Or at least the first digit? 

Sine_Qua_Non
Sine_Qua_Non SuperDork
3/31/22 10:48 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

So, guesses as to MSRP? Or at least the first digit? 

$34k is my guess but the market price adjustment by the dealership will likely force it over $40k

R56fanatic (Forum Supporter)
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) New Reader
3/31/22 10:57 p.m.

"6L, 3-cylinder"... that would be interesting!

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon UltraDork
3/31/22 11:24 p.m.

Yay, Corollas are cool again.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/31/22 11:25 p.m.

I want. Who has the  hook-up on pre-orders?

edit: actually GR TOYOTA let me a race a car for a year, I guarantee you,  I won't regret it.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/31/22 11:37 p.m.

I'd pre-order one. Been looking for a modern Evo and couldn't do a FoRS. I will not however, play the $15k market adjustment game. 

buzzboy
buzzboy SuperDork
3/31/22 11:41 p.m.

I've been looking for a new car. Need awd/4wd and a manual trans. Hmmmm

obsolete
obsolete GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/1/22 1:18 a.m.

100HP per cylinder. Dang.

mr2peak
mr2peak Dork
4/1/22 3:34 a.m.

Rather get the GR Yaris

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 6:52 a.m.
R56fanatic (Forum Supporter) said:

"6L, 3-cylinder"... that would be interesting!

Sonny's builds it smiley

David S. Wallens said:

So, guesses as to MSRP? Or at least the first digit? 

39,700-43999 is my guess

 

I also suspect that there will only be a small window of time during which you'll ever see them sell for below MSRP in the secondary market. 

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/1/22 7:53 a.m.

$34,999 just so they can say it starts from $35k.

Ford did the same thing with the Bronco Raptor....."starting at under $70,000"....."MSRP of $69,999".

Hate when OE's do that.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
4/1/22 7:58 a.m.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion but I already have my flame suit on.

Good God did someone beat this thing for a weak with an ugly tree? I want my cars to be something I look back at and think "Nice.... " not look away from so I don't lose breakfast on the ground. It's like Toyota looked at the last Hype R and said "That needs more E36 M3 tacked on and more odd lines".

 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 8:06 a.m.

I'm guessing $39,999 to $44,999 for the Core model with no options, but you won't be able to get one with no options because you have to take what's on the lot.

At least $20k markup on the Circuit Spec one, if we're lucky only $10k on the Core ones.

Followed by complaints that the buyers in the US just don't want sporty cars.

(I'm a tad grumpy & undercaffeinated)

Edit: Might still try to preorder one.

gearheadE30
gearheadE30 Dork
4/1/22 8:29 a.m.

I get some of the grumping, styling is always a personal thing, but Toyota of all people is giving us a turbo, 4wd, and an honest to god manual transmission at the same time that Subaru is shelving the STi. That's something to be pretty darn excited about in my book.

mblommel
mblommel Dork
4/1/22 8:30 a.m.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

This is exactly what will happen. It's the same thing that killed the MR2 Spyder.

I already liked the styling of the regular Corolla hatch. I wonder if they'll offer the GR in that cool smurf blue color.

I'm not sold on the fender vents, but if they're functional at all that makes it better.

RX8driver
RX8driver Reader
4/1/22 8:38 a.m.

I put my deposit down yesterday after seeing the leaked Toyota page, but before the actual release and I'm only 2nd in line in a small town of only 8,000 people. Someone beat me to it earlier that day! I'd been waiting on the new STI to replace my 2015 WRX, then it was canceled. This ticks all the boxes (manual, awd, 300 hp, huge brakes, etc) and I actually like that it's got some bonkers styling. That's one thing that's never excited me about a Golf R, WAY too reserved.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb UltraDork
4/1/22 8:44 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

On cars like this I'm always torn, 40 year old me likes cars that are more subtle in the styling department, but my inner 17 year old likes cars that scream "LOOK AT ME!!" 

I cant really say on this one until I see it from more angles, and preferably in person.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
4/1/22 8:53 a.m.

Remember when Toyota could make cars that were pretty?  I think I'd rather spend a little extra and get a GTI R over this.  

This car looks like it should be cheap, to me, but I don't consider paying over $25k cheap for a Corolla that doesn't have a real tie-in with a racing series. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 9:00 a.m.

MSRP is pretty tricky. Some people are using the GR Yaris as a benchmark, but that car is a 100% bespoke platform that was built to homologate the car for the WRC. It stickered at $39,000 - $44,000 dollars. While the Corolla hatch is an existing platform, a lot of work went into making it the GR-Four, so it could sticker in about the same range. That would allow it to undercut the Golf R by just a bit and would be a lot for a Corolla, but not for a 300HP AWD beast. 

Toyota may decide to benchmark the Golf R and Civic Type R and push the sticker into the $44k - $46K. Probably justified considering the spec, but that is a lot for a Corolla. 

They may also benchmark cars like the VW GTI SE and WRX and try to come in around $35K - $37K. That would make it a pretty good deal IMHO. Name another $35K car with 300hp and a carbon-fiber roof?

The dreamer in me wants to belive that Toyota wants to undercut the value-priced Elantra N and offer the GR-Four at $29 - $32K, a small bump up from a Civic Si. At that price, they would be everywhere.    

fatallightning
fatallightning Reader
4/1/22 9:19 a.m.

I'd hope that that the core will base at like 33-34k, and the launch at 40k ish. To touch what was said above, speculation is that the Yaris is more expensive to make because of the amount of bespoke bits not in common with the mainline cars. And using other cars sold in the UK as a guide, usually it's never a straight GBP to USD conversion, the States usually has a price advantage. 

JAdams
JAdams GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/1/22 9:27 a.m.

I'm super excited for this! Just got on the list at my local dealer and he claimed I was first in line. We will see if that's true I guess.

300hp, AWD, 6 speed manual, tuneable, hatch. What's not to love? I guess without knowing the MSRP yet, that might be the part that everyone doesn't love.

I guess the big decision will be if the extra cost is worth it for the launch edition?

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/1/22 9:27 a.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Gah!  I kept clicking on the arrows thinking there is more than one picture. 

I don't hate it, but like the CTR I'd like to buy, I don't need it and can think of other ways I should spend $40K+...

calteg
calteg Dork
4/1/22 9:27 a.m.

Considering a very used Evo VIII or Evo IX goes for around $35-40k nowadays, this seems like a bargain

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/1/22 9:40 a.m.

I suspect upper-$30s for core (more if you add one of the 3 available packages), more than $40k for circuit. Add in ADM for at least the first of year production. 

So maybe by 2024 you'll actually be able to get one around MSRP? 

Option Packages

GR Corolla Core Grade is available with the following packages:

  • Performance package: Includes front and rear Torsen Limited Slip Differentials (LSD).
  • Technology package: Includes Premium Audio with Dynamic Navigation and JBL® w/Clari-Fi®, and Qi-compatible wireless smartphone charging.
  • Cold Weather Package: Includes heated front seats and heated steering wheel.
David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
4/1/22 9:54 a.m.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

More pictures coming. The Toyota media site seemed a bit overloaded last night and wasn't totally cooperating. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/1/22 10:07 a.m.
bobzilla said:

I know this will be an unpopular opinion but I already have my flame suit on.

Good God did someone beat this thing for a weak with an ugly tree? I want my cars to be something I look back at and think "Nice.... " not look away from so I don't lose breakfast on the ground. It's like Toyota looked at the last Hype R and said "That needs more E36 M3 tacked on and more odd lines".

 

I know! Subtle-looking performance cars sell like hotcakes. Just look at the Mazda 3 turbo! Oh wait..... 

mblommel
mblommel Dork
4/1/22 10:18 a.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I just saw some factory photos of a core in red. Much less boy racerish. No bulgy hood, regular spoiler.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UltraDork
4/1/22 10:21 a.m.

They keep posting 6L 3cylinder. Not really 2 liters per cylinder, what does it really displace?

fidelity101
fidelity101 UberDork
4/1/22 10:21 a.m.

I really really really want one, haven't had a desire to want a car this bad, ever. Its not a wankel and I don't care!

[Image - 113201] | Shut Up And Take My Money! | Know Your Meme

EVO rally cars are cool but complicated

Subaru rally cars are too common and I hate the engine/understeer characteristics of the cars

mazda 323 GTX? too old too fragile and not worthwhile

focus RS: huge disappointment 

golf R: never was gonna be a rally car anyways

 

a production like class/limited 4WD class this will do well on and I really want to turn it into a stage rally car  but don't mind breaking it in on the street and enjoying it first. it literally does check all the boxes - this doesn't happen ever.

 

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
4/1/22 10:22 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

1.6 liters

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/1/22 10:40 a.m.

I opened this today, and when I saw 6L 3cyl, I assumed this was still an April Fools joke, but it was posted yesterday.

Based off the MSRP of the Focus RS, Golf R and STi, plus the fact that two out of three are either already dead or going.  I"m going for 37,999 for a base model and $42K fully loaded before the stealerships tack on a $20K market adjustment.

 

Side rant.  Dealers say selling direct to customers is not fare, so how is having a monopoly on who you can buy it from, then let them charge market adjustments. One wasy or the other, no cake and eating it too.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 10:45 a.m.

If this has 300hp, and the Chiron has 1200, that means they make the same HP per cylinder. The Bug is a bit more expensive though, so this is a deal at any price. 

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/1/22 10:50 a.m.

I bet we'll see driving impression videos today. I'm really excited to see how it does on the 'ring'. imagine the hype if it bests the Civic R time... Albeit I am doubtful, depending on the weight difference with the circuit edition, I think it'll be hard to argue against the weight savings of fwd

JAdams
JAdams GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/1/22 10:52 a.m.

In reply to calteg :

My thoughts exactly! I've been very close to buying a Evo 8 or 9 but have a real problem spending that kind of coin on an old used up car with a tough life.

rslifkin
rslifkin UberDork
4/1/22 11:01 a.m.
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

If this has 300hp, and the Chiron has 1200, that means they make the same HP per cylinder. The Bug is a bit more expensive though, so this is a deal at any price. 

More HP per cylinder, but less per liter.  Bugatti is 8 liters, 16 cylinders at 1578hp for the highest trim.  This is 1.6 liters, 3 cylinders at 300hp.  So Bugatti is 197.25 hp/liter, 98.625 per cylinder.  The Toyota is 187.5 hp/liter, but 100 per cylinder. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
4/1/22 11:18 a.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

It doesn't have to be subtle, just not the current Origami wild angles for no reason styling most of hte japanese carmakers are doing

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 11:34 a.m.
rslifkin said:
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

If this has 300hp, and the Chiron has 1200, that means they make the same HP per cylinder. The Bug is a bit more expensive though, so this is a deal at any price. 

More HP per cylinder, but less per liter.  Bugatti is 8 liters, 16 cylinders at 1578hp for the highest trim.  This is 1.6 liters, 3 cylinders at 300hp.  So Bugatti is 197.25 hp/liter, 98.625 per cylinder.  The Toyota is 187.5 hp/liter, but 100 per cylinder. 

Mercedes had a couple fours pushing past 200hp/l or 100hp/cylinder.

Modern combustion space technology is wonderful.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 11:45 a.m.
thashane said:

I bet we'll see driving impression videos today. I'm really excited to see how it does on the 'ring'. imagine the hype if it bests the Civic R time... Albeit I am doubtful, depending on the weight difference with the circuit edition, I think it'll be hard to argue against the weight savings of fwd

The Ring is good, I am curious how it does on Welsh forest roads.

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter)
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
4/1/22 12:04 p.m.

My 2 cents...(worth less than that but here we go)

I am happy to see any manufacturer building a car like this, even better that it isn't a hybrid/electric.

Thank you for a real manual trans!

AWD, well...at least its not FWD and the optional diffs are a good thing. Hope most of the dealers order them (should have been standard)

How long is that engine going to last? I don't see a highly stressed powerplant like that not being a maintenance nightmare. (Head gaskets, turbos, and a million little hoses and sensors. Ok, every new car is like that)

Damn, is it ever ugly! Better than the Yaris though. 

Price? I bet $39,999 to start. Car will last 2  years then plug is pulled.

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
4/1/22 12:06 p.m.

The underhood packaging makes it look like it'll be reasonably easy to work on relative to a lot of other modern cars. Also, agreed that the Core model in red looks a bit less in-your-face.

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
4/1/22 12:10 p.m.

Engine bay does look relatively accessible, until is starts burning oil. I'm currently ignoring that on my GTI, can't imagine it's any less of a headache here. 

Be nice to see it without 2 many doors, but that's just bonkers. Can we get an optional retainer to fix that massive overbite on the rear? 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/1/22 12:13 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
thashane said:

I bet we'll see driving impression videos today. I'm really excited to see how it does on the 'ring'. imagine the hype if it bests the Civic R time... Albeit I am doubtful, depending on the weight difference with the circuit edition, I think it'll be hard to argue against the weight savings of fwd

The Ring is good, I am curious how it does on Welsh forest roads.

It'll never see them. While this is in the vein of old school homologation specials, it isn't really one these days.  This is the car enthusiasts want, but there's no need for Goupe A homologation specials these days, it's the base car that gets homologated and the rules tell you what you can di underneath. 

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
4/1/22 12:18 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) 

 

Side rant.  Dealers say selling direct to customers is not fare, so how is having a monopoly on who you can buy it from, then let them charge market adjustments. One wasy or the other, no cake and eating it too.

Market adjustment is exactly why i didn't buy a maverick. Or srt4 new.

Gotta be a better way. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 12:51 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
thashane said:

I bet we'll see driving impression videos today. I'm really excited to see how it does on the 'ring'. imagine the hype if it bests the Civic R time... Albeit I am doubtful, depending on the weight difference with the circuit edition, I think it'll be hard to argue against the weight savings of fwd

The Ring is good, I am curious how it does on Welsh forest roads.

It'll never see them. While this is in the vein of old school homologation specials, it isn't really one these days.  This is the car enthusiasts want, but there's no need for Goupe A homologation specials these days, it's the base car that gets homologated and the rules tell you what you can di underneath. 

I am sure there are plenty of unpronouncably Welsh driving enthusiasts who will take the plunge on their own time.  I am fully aware that even if there were a homologation, this car is out of spec (not enough cylinders, too large of a car, etc)

I kind of wonder now what kind of rear suspension it has. Beam axle, multilink, A frame, struts, other?

stafford1500
stafford1500 GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/1/22 1:01 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
 

I kind of wonder now what kind of rear suspension it has. Beam axle, multilink, A frame, struts, other?

front is McPherson, rear is multi-link double wishbone

Brakes: 14.0x 4 piston fronts, 11.7x2 piston rears

235/40/18's at al four corners

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 1:01 p.m.

From what I read in the UK media - well, Pistonheads - it actually doesn't look like Europe will get the GR Corolla. Looks like it's the US consolation price for not getting the GR Yaris so far.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Double wishbone in the rear

stafford1500
stafford1500 GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/1/22 1:21 p.m.

In case you want more specs: 

Interesting to note that it is port injected and not direct injected

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 1:25 p.m.

Wow that trans has nice ratios!

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
4/1/22 1:58 p.m.

As for the MSRP: 45K gouged to 52K is my current prediction.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb UltraDork
4/1/22 2:03 p.m.

I think we are in the golden age of factory performance. But........................

It's a hot hatch that makes 300 hp, and still isn't quite to the 1hp/10lbs mark. I know we've beat this dead horse many times on this forum, but cars need to be lighter.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
4/1/22 2:12 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

It's difficult to make cars lighter given all that has to and all that's expected to go into them.

My little Datsun wieghs 1600lbs..................you do not want to crash in that thing (it's why mine has such a stout cage). All that crash protection adds weight.

AWD & Turbos (what the demographic expects) add weight.

Infotainment adds weight.

3200lbs for an AWD turbo is pretty good.

Erich
Erich UberDork
4/1/22 2:16 p.m.

Just as a little perspective, the US-market WRX debuted at about $24k purchase price. That's $48k inflation adjusted. 

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
4/1/22 2:29 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Infotainment adds weight

If they'd ditch that weight then I would be noticeably more interested, from both a weight and simplicity perspective.

obsolete
obsolete GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/1/22 2:30 p.m.
stafford1500 said:

Interesting to note that it is port injected and not direct injected

If what I've read elsewhere is correct, it is actually both.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/1/22 2:32 p.m.
stafford1500 said:

In case you want more specs: 

Interesting to note that it is port injected and not direct injected

https://pressroom.toyota.com/heat-for-the-streets-toyota-debuts-first-ever-gr-corolla

The full press release from Toyota seems to indicate a similar D-4S system like on the Twins:

 

  • 1.6L, 3-cylinder direct/port injected turbo engine delivers 300 hp and 273 pound-feet of torque


 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/1/22 2:37 p.m.
Error404 said:
Tom1200 said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Infotainment adds weight

If they'd ditch that weight then I would be noticeably more interested, from both a weight and simplicity perspective.

The big screen is basically the weight of an iPad, so I don't think removing it would make a big difference. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/1/22 2:44 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Error404 said:
Tom1200 said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Infotainment adds weight

If they'd ditch that weight then I would be noticeably more interested, from both a weight and simplicity perspective.

The big screen is basically the weight of an iPad, so I don't think removing it would make a big difference. 

And from a manufacturing POV, those big screens seem to reduce the number of components in the dash, thus making assembly more simple... Simple to the user is less of a concern.    I tend to agree - my 2017 Dodge is about as complicated as I want a car to be. And it's basically just a double-DIN stereo. The integrated navigation is crap compared to Google maps on my phone.  I honestly don't know why manufacturers even bother.  Now if I could get the screen to be a duplicate/extension of my phone, then I'll be interested... maybe it is that way in some cars. 

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
4/1/22 2:52 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

Now if I could get the screen to be a duplicate/extension of my phone, then I'll be interested... maybe it is that way in some cars. 

That's literally what Apple CarPlay and Google Android Auto are, and most new cars support one or both. The Corolla being discussed here supports both, AFAIK.

After having it in my '16 GTI I've put an aftermarket unit with CarPlay support in every vehicle I've owned since, it's fantastic.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
4/1/22 3:07 p.m.

The only thing I really don't like about it isn't GR specific... The stupid rear/hatch back designs that reduce the functional reason for having a hatch back in the first place. I suppose it's fine if you have a lot of triangular or trapezoidal shaped stuff to carry, but what a waste of already limited space for the majority of rectangular-ish profile stuff.

Beyond that, cool car! I'm glad to see the weight isn't quite as bad as many had feared... Although I wonder whether that is for the metal or CF roof, and what the difference is between the two.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
4/1/22 3:13 p.m.
gearheadmb said:

I know we've beat this dead horse many times on this forum, but cars need to be lighter.

Define "need". It's apparently cheaper and easier to hit the performance efficiency targets on a heavier car, than it is to hit the safety and quality targets on a lighter car. How many $/lb extra are you willing to pay manufacturers to ge the weight down?

emcj7550
emcj7550 New Reader
4/1/22 3:30 p.m.

Assuming it's a decent car...price and availability will be key to its success. If Toyota can make them for a reasonable price and can make enough of them, it stands a chance. However, if they price it at or above it's realistic competition, and/or they're too few available to keep the dealers from "market adjusting" the price out of reach even further, then it's Supra-sayonara time.

The problem with cars like this is, except for rare occasions, the people who want to own them can't afford them and the people who can afford them are looking at a Golf R or used RS3 or Porsche or something...not a $50,000 Corolla. 

On the other hand, I can only only giddily stand up and cheer Toyota for actually creating a car like this , in this day and age. Imagine the corporate balls it took to green-light something this absurd and wonderful...and in freaking manual only!!! I really hope it doesn't crash and burn. I'm not holding my breath here...

Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

 

How long is that engine going to last? I don't see a highly stressed powerplant like that not being a maintenance nightmare. (Head gaskets, turbos, and a million little hoses and sensors. Ok, every new car is like that)

 

Sleeves

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
4/1/22 4:37 p.m.
Error404 said:
Tom1200 said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

Infotainment adds weight

If they'd ditch that weight then I would be noticeably more interested, from both a weight and simplicity perspective.

And this is why I buy open wheel race cars.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/1/22 4:59 p.m.
Dusterbd13-michael said:
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) 

 

Side rant.  Dealers say selling direct to customers is not fare, so how is having a monopoly on who you can buy it from, then let them charge market adjustments. One wasy or the other, no cake and eating it too.

Market adjustment is exactly why i didn't buy a maverick. Or srt4 new.

Gotta be a better way. 

Inquired on a new G Wagon today, $100k over MSRP market adjustment surprise

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
4/1/22 5:35 p.m.

Do you think there might be some way of beating the market adjustment? 

Whether it's buying a car across the country, or thru something like Carvana? 

I could actually see stretching a bit for this vehicle if I could get the Core Model at $30k.

In reply to pheller :

You won't see the core within $6500 of that mark, pre any "market adjustment" 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
4/1/22 6:00 p.m.

Couple thoughts:

 

1. 3249 lbs? How can they get it that heavy?  
2. These pricing predictions seem awfully high. Can Toyota make an interior that remotely lives in the same universe as the Audi, pardon me, Golf R or GTI? I can get a similar weight/power and option from the R that is fairly suBtle, so I wonder what they are bringing to the table that differentiates.  God that means I'm getting old, doesn't it. 
3. Tangentially related. The Toyota dealer has two tacomas (4wd, auto, double cab, short box) on the lot. $9995 dealer value markup on both. This dealer sucks, yes, but I'd expect that to be the norm until their lots start filling back up. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 6:08 p.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

That is only 189lb more than a base Corolla hatch.  Not bad considering the all wheel drive system. 

It looks like base 2022 Corollas already have 18" wheels, and the larger brake rotors on the GR are probably offset by the calipers, which I assume are aluminum.

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/1/22 6:49 p.m.

My mom always said-If you can't say anything nice... but what's up with that cars face? I mean front end.

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
4/1/22 7:08 p.m.

Reading more of the specs, this is the most exciting car Toyota has made since.... I'm thinking the last gen Supra. (I don't count the Twins or current Supra). I can't think of anything Toyota (actually Toyota, not BMW or Subaru) has sold in the US that is this interesting in a LONG time.

We are talking about a car that weighs less than the Evo/STi, makes similar power, has Toyota reliability, some functional usability, and could actually be affordable (if we are lucky). Btw, salient point above about the price of a WRX adjusted for inflation. 

This car weighs 189 lbs more than a regular Corolla despite having AWD. That's absurd in this day in age! For perspective, it weighs about what a Veloster N weighs, depending on the spec. The Veloster is a FWD car. This has AWD and more power.

And random side note that furthers my interest: have you noticed that it has 18" wheels?! In a world where everyone has 20's, I find it very refreshing to see an 18' wheel again. Reduced unsprung weight not to mention reduced tire prices.

I really hope this thing is priced right and that they make a lot of them so it doesn't get treated like the CTR and FoRS did. 

I am really excited about this car! It seems like a perfect GRM car to me. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 7:13 p.m.

For more perspective, it is roughly the exterior size of a CTR, which weighs a little over a hundred pounds less, while making the same power and not having all wheel drive.

Berck
Berck Reader
4/1/22 7:36 p.m.

I called the local dealer this afternoon to express interest and am #10 on the list in Colorado Springs.  Sounds like there's real interest, but then there was for the GR86 and they totally managed to screw that up.  I'm not willing to pay a bunch of dealer markup, so we'll see what happens.  Also seems unlikely that a Colorado Springs dealer is going to actually get 10 of them?  I was eventually able to get the Focus RS for MSRP and no one thought that would happen, but it took waiting until the end of 2017 when everyone who had one already got one and the rest were happy to pay ADM on the 2018 models for the fancy front diff.  But that was all back when you could actually buy new cars.

I'm skeptical about whether it'll actually have Toyota reliability given that absurd power to displacement ratio, but I haven't seen much in the way of horror stories from the GR Yaris?  Also wonder how usable the back seat is--I was pretty disappointed by the cramped back seat in the RS as compared to the roomy one in the WRX.  Looks like a lot less cargo area too.  Still, I don't know how else to encourage car makers to make the thing I want other than going out and buying the thing when they do!

calteg
calteg Dork
4/1/22 8:28 p.m.

Any bets on MPG? For some reason I remember the GR Yaris breaking 30mpg due to only being a 3 cylinder...

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 8:33 p.m.

In reply to Berck :

Everything mass produced has a percentage of failure.  Video is 10 months old.

 

TL:DW: A rocker lost its roller bearing and turned into a keeper removal tool.  The interesting thing, to me, is while the head looks nothing like a V6 head as I would have assumed (ironically the GR engine family) the rocker looks like the same thing used in the GR heads... as well as a LOT of other engines, including Subarus, Chevys, etc.  So I am going to call this a fluke unless more reports of valvetrain failure roll in.

GTwannaB
GTwannaB GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/1/22 9:17 p.m.

I can't believe so many folks are hating on the looks. It's a hot hatch not a Lamborghini. This thing looks like a sweet ride. Every GR Yaris review gushes over that car. I wish I could rationalize buying this GR Corolla. Just not the time. 

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/1/22 10:17 p.m.

Well my dealer wasn't interested in my money enough to return my phone call. that's fine, I've never been an early adopter, especially with cars.

However; I am really excited for this car! 3-cheers to Toyoda and crew for giving hope to enthusiasts in North America! Esp after Subaru announce no STI. I feel like everyones biggest criticism for the STI was that it's "only" had 300hp for the last 20(?) years, but subtract a cylinder, and almost a liter, and everyones getting pretty excited. I'm curious to know if Yamaha had anything to do with this motor.

The wheel base is only slightly longer than the R55 MINI clubman, and significantly wider track width. I bet this thing will be a blast on a tight AX.

Berck
Berck Reader
4/1/22 10:33 p.m.

In reply to thashane :

I think the frustration with the STI and "only" 300hp was the fact that they had managed to keep bumping up the power up consistently until then.  And then when Ford released the RS with 350hp, I think that made it sting a little more.  (When I bought the RS, there were 2 STIs on the lot that had just been traded in on RSs.)  Now they're both gone, so while it would have been fun to delve into nitty gritty competitive details, I think most of us are just happy it exists at all.  Honestly, as long as it's an AWD hatchback with a manual transmission, I'd have been perfectly happy with 250hp.  If the Mazda 3 hatch had been available with both AWD and a manual, I'd probably have bought that.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
4/1/22 11:58 p.m.

I kind of like it, but it will probably cost too much and eat enough fuel it can't be my next daily.

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
4/2/22 7:43 a.m.

My personal take- this is Grail level for me. Awf turbo rally rocket. Looks awesome. Does cool stuff. Is a Corolla, and a hatchback. 

 

Unfortunately I am well out of the new car market these days due to own choice. That and I can't imagine a Corolla approaching 50. My head just doesn't allow it. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/2/22 10:13 a.m.
Teh E36 M3 said:

Couple thoughts:

 

1. 3249 lbs? How can they get it that heavy?  
2. These pricing predictions seem awfully high. Can Toyota make an interior that remotely lives in the same universe as the Audi, pardon me, Golf R or GTI? I can get a similar weight/power and option from the R that is fairly suBtle, so I wonder what they are bringing to the table that differentiates.  God that means I'm getting old, doesn't it. 
3. Tangentially related. The Toyota dealer has two tacomas (4wd, auto, double cab, short box) on the lot. $9995 dealer value markup on both. This dealer sucks, yes, but I'd expect that to be the norm until their lots start filling back up. 

As for the interior, I would never expect to be something like Audi.

Just like EVO, STi, Focus RS, it's essentially an economy car that gets a hopped up drivetrain, suspension, and brakes.

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/2/22 10:41 a.m.

I would be all in if I could afford a new car. Looks great, and I've been jealous of the GR Yaris since it came out. 

I don't even care that it will (likely) have "engine noises" piped through the stereo (like the Yaris). Just when I had written off modern cars, too. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/22 10:47 a.m.

In reply to Berck :

I'll add that the frustration of the sti is that EJ motors are a dumpster fire with regards to longevity, and the 2.3EB in the FOST is marginally better. Call me jaded, but if I modern powerplant has the potential for significant issues prior to 150k, then I'm underwealmed by it. 

 

On the other hand, Toyota manual gearboxes are rare, but they're bombproof. And outside of some (significant) oiling issues in the past 20 years, their engines have been as well.  That in my mind is where the GR spanks the Subaru and takes it's lunch money. 

 

There's also a very small percentage of us who either had parents, or had friends who had parents who had all trac Toyotas with manual transmissions back in the last 80s and early 90s and when we cut our teeth learning to drive, we got some seat time in them, whether they have been tercel, Corolla, Camry or I'll even count 1st gen RAV4 into the mix, and they were far more fun and engaging to drive than they had any right to be. Speedwise they were lacking, but they were engaging, willing, chuckable and almost plucky. A modern feel of that dynamic with some grunt behind it, a 3 cylinder soundtrack, the realization that it won't be a bad investment (regardless of whether it's 38k or 46k), a dealership network that is going to continue to exist all speak to it being a winner in the sound, yet very fun, decision market. 

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 12:55 p.m.
Teh E36 M3 said:

Can Toyota make an interior that remotely lives in the same universe as the Audi, pardon me, Golf R or GTI? I can get a similar weight/power and option from the R that is fairly suBtle, so I wonder what they are bringing to the table that differentiates.  God that means I'm getting old, doesn't it. 

I hope not!  The Golf R interior is so terrible that I wouldn't consider it for that reason.  No buttons or knobs, just touch screens that don't work with gloves on.  Not to mention hideous looking.

What does Toyota bring to the table?  Not being a VAG product is kind of huge.  I think even most of the Golf R fanboys agree that the reliability is terrible.  Even if we pick whatever the worst reliability Toyota has managed in the last couple of decades (Probably the 86 because of the Subaru engine?), it's still hands down better than whatever's the best that VAG has managed.  (Note that I have personal experience, I currently own 2 Audis and they are astonishingly unreliable, terrible to work on, parts are incredibly expensive, but boy are they nice to drive...)

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 1:03 p.m.
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

On the other hand, Toyota manual gearboxes are rare, but they're bombproof. And outside of some (significant) oiling issues in the past 20 years, their engines have been as well.  That in my mind is where the GR spanks the Subaru and takes it's lunch money. 

I'm with you, and the fact that it's a Toyota is one of the big reasons I'd like to replace a FoRS with one.  My anecdotal experience is that the FoRS has been reasonably reliable over 5 years and 75,000 miles, but wouldn't you expect *any* brand new car to be?  Over a similar period, my completely stock 2013 WRX broke a clutch fork taking out the entire clutch assembly and leaving me stranded on a road trip, needed a transmission rebuild after the 3rd and 5th gear synchros went out, and developed quite a bit of oil consumption.  The worst thing that's happened to the RS so far is all the things the dealer broke doing the head gasket recall and the 5 trips back to the dealer before they ever got it back in working order.  I actually expected it to be worse, and I'm shocked that thus far the extended warranty has not paid for itself.

Still, this insane 3 cylinder engine is so very new from everything else Toyota has done, I won't buy it expecting Toyota reliability, but I will be hoping for it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/22 1:20 p.m.

I wouldn't classify the EJ engines as a dumpster fire.  They aren't 2JZs for sure but they are remarkably good for how light and simple they are.

The thing that concerns me about the GR (and FoRS) is parts commonality.  How much is shared with other platforms, how much is unicorn horn shavings?  If the 3 cylinder starts showing up in more mainstream products, that is good, if the rear suspension is shared with a cute ute so you don't have to hunt three months for a suspension link, that is good.  For sure the transmission will always be unicorn unless Toyota decides to start selling manual trans RAV4s.

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 1:54 p.m.
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:

I don't even care that it will (likely) have "engine noises" piped through the stereo (like the Yaris). 

I assume that's every car now?  I first discovered it with the Focus RS which has a particularly terrible implementation.  I was confused at how they made an I4 sound like a flat 4, but only sometimes.  It ramps the volume with throttle position, but ignoring boost or revs.  It's hilarious.  Also completely easy to disable non-destructively in 30 seconds by disconnecting a single connector under the rear carpet.

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 2:20 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Just watched the video--important fact is that this was precipitated by an admitted mis-shift and over-rev.  Good on the guy for admitting it up front.  Given that information, I'm wondering about the order of the failure as presented.  I don't think that the needle bearings in that rocker arm are going to be the first thing to go from a momentary over-rev.  Seems more likely that the piston hit the valve *first* and that took out the retaining ring and possibly the bearing?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/22 2:27 p.m.

In reply to Berck :

I would think the more likely fault would be valve float allowing the follower (not rocker, my bad) to get hammered by the camshaft, damaging the roller, as needle bearings really do not like impact loads.  I have seen similar design follower failures due to piston contact but it was due to the camshaft going off time, allowing the piston to force the follower against a cam lobe.  This results in a broken follower, not a damaged roller.

If the failure was precipitated by an overrev, there would be an air gap in the system while the valves floated.

Valve float related damage hurts the exhaust valves, because those are the ones closing while the piston nears TDC.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/22 2:43 p.m.

There's something about a horny little rally hatchback. I really liked my old 323 GTX, and other than being a street special instead of a homologation car this is about as close as you're going to get. It is a bunch heavier but I'm not as light as I was in 1988 either :) It's also a lot bigger - 16" longer!

It doesn't have a center differential, but a clutch. So it's slipping that clutch constantly to adjust power delivery and deal with different rotational speeds. That says a lot about the durability of modern clutch materials.

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 2:44 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Ahh, that would make even more sense.  Impact from the cam lobe after valve float killed the needle bearing and then the rest of the destruction happened as described.   It looks beefy in there for such a cute little engine, and nothing about this makes me at all hesitant to sign up to buy one.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/2/22 2:45 p.m.
Berck said:
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:

I don't even care that it will (likely) have "engine noises" piped through the stereo (like the Yaris). 

I assume that's every car now?  I first discovered it with the Focus RS which has a particularly terrible implementation.  I was confused at how they made an I4 sound like a flat 4, but only sometimes.  It ramps the volume with throttle position, but ignoring boost or revs.  It's hilarious.  Also completely easy to disable non-destructively in 30 seconds by disconnecting a single connector under the rear carpet.

I know on the new BRZ/GR86, you can simply unplug the speaker or have the dealer go in with their scan tool and disable it. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/2/22 3:03 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In before the "not true all wheel drive" brigade smiley

WRC also have no center differential, just a clutch for handbrake disconnect.

 

There is probably no clutch lining like a transmission has, it is probably a multilplate setup that is metal on metal, like a limited slip diff has except instead of spring preload and ramps, it has a hydraulic pump and piston setup.  This is a remarkably robust setup.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/2/22 3:13 p.m.

this video has some good views of the gr yaris block with the head off. Looks like headgasket went out at 30something boosties

 

Berck
Berck Reader
4/2/22 3:14 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Focus RS is similar, but a little more fancy using a computer controlled dual clutch pack in the rear and a fixed power takeoff unit instead of a center diff. Modern clutch materials are impressive, but of course these are wet clutches which makes dealing with constant slip easier.  I suspect that worry about those clutch materials at high temps is why the Focus RS only lets me drive about 20 minutes on the track before it decides the rear drive unit is too hot, opens the clutches and turns it into a 350hp FWD machine which is funny, but not particularly fun.

te72
te72 Reader
4/2/22 5:35 p.m.

Surprised nobody has mentioned the old Celica GT-Four / All-Trac yet. This reminds me a lot of that. Also reminds me of what could have been, had Toyota paired the 2ZZ with the AWD option on the old Matrix...

 

I'm very interested. Wheel base and track width are both a tiny bit bigger than either of our Supras, the car is lighter than either of those as well. Will it make the power of the 1/2jz? Nah, of course not, but it's HALF the displacement of the 2jz, without any concern of wheel slip which is entertaining if not particularly easy on the wallet haha. Add to that the throttle response of a direct injected setup, I suspect this thing will absolutely rip on an autocross course.

 

My only concerns at this point are outward visibility and price. I love the S550 Mustang and 5th/6th gen Camaros, but visibility is terrible in those cars. It's a real bummer running over cones because you had no perception of them thanks to a 4' tall hood line... This Corolla has a much shorter front end, but it does look awfully high.

 

That, and I'm not gonna be paying over MSRP, I simply refuse, on principle. Ideally low 30's would make this a VERY tempting buy, but high 30's, 40's... it gets tougher for me to justify. Like I said, VERY interested. =)

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
4/2/22 9:31 p.m.

In reply to te72 :

I haven't been in the GR obviously but I have been in the plain Corolla hatch and both the Mustang/Camaro, and I can confirm the visibility is quite a bit better. It's not phenomenal like an early 90's low-hood Honda, but it's good enough for a modern car.

I can't stand cars with a coin-slot view out so it's always something I notice.

te72
te72 Reader
4/3/22 2:15 a.m.

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Glad to hear that! Nearly every car I've ever owned was developed in the 70's through the 90's, so that's the sort of visibility benchmark I have. Have been daily driving an NB for 8 years now.

 

Question is, which car gets kicked out of the garage if I do pick up a GR Corolla? Miata kinda feels redundant when you also have an Exocet... don't think I could part ways with the Supra, despite the love-hate relationship I have with it. I realize how incredibly blessed I've been to find myself with such a decision in my future. Weird when you consider I drove straight up hoopties for YEARS until I finally got a halfway nice car. =P

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
4/3/22 9:25 a.m.
te72 said:

........ Also reminds me of what could have been, had Toyota paired the 2ZZ with the AWD option on the old Matrix...

Noooo! The 2ZZ is too peaky for AWD in that porky chassis. Now if you gave it a shorter final drive, or boost,  AWD would be a riot.

(Also need to fix the dumb 1-2 gear spacing and/or lift threshold)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/3/22 9:40 a.m.

In reply to MrJoshua :

Indeed, the benefit of a revvy engine is that it is easier to pedal in a traction limited vehicle.  Turbos and all wheel drive go together like biscuits and gravy.  You can exploit the mid range pull and the nonlinearity of the power delivery does not need to be minded for traction.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/3/22 10:52 a.m.

That was the justification behind the cammed 5.3 in my original Targa Miata build. Supposedly easier to drive because it had to be revved to perform. That turned out to be horsepucky. No problem at all managing traction with the torquey 6.2 and massively more speed. 

Predictable power delivery is easy to manage. It's unpredictable delivery that you've gotta watch for, and non linear is not unpredictable. 

te72
te72 Reader
4/3/22 3:06 p.m.

In reply to MrJoshua :

Those cars definitely needed a shorter final drive, or perhaps a really tall 6th gear and close 1-5 to really take advantage of that engine's fun characteristics. Ever try driving an automatic 2ZZ? Yuck.

te72
te72 Reader
4/3/22 3:08 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That's kinda what I'm looking forward to. The Supras can put the power down, but you are somewhat surface limited, and around here the surfaces aren't usually good. You learn to drive around it, and learn to handle a car with the rear wheels always spinning, but I've never had an awd. Good friend of mine says it's practically cheating how easy it is to drive in the snow and ice.

te72
te72 Reader
4/3/22 3:12 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Generally speaking, that linearity is why I prefer naturally aspirated engines, but at 6500' elevation, it has to be a big one, or it's gonna be beyond slow.

 

That's also why I swapped out my old mid frame turbo for a Garrett G25-660. Much more fun to drive, and it's not like it lacks theatrics when you have 80% of your peak torque, all the time. Hmm... I wonder if that G16 on the Corolla would be amenable to a turbo swap... I have a spare G25, hmm.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
4/3/22 3:14 p.m.

Those cylinder walls are stout. Should be stable with the boost turned up

Berck
Berck Reader
4/3/22 4:36 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

According to one of the videos in the thread, the head gasket starts leaking around 450hp...  Once you figure that out, it does look like there's a potential for more power, if that's your thing.  When I build a computer, I buy all the highly-reviewed overclocking parts, but then I don't actually overclock anything so that I know I've got something that will be reliable with margin for error.  I want the same thing out of my cars.

In reply to te72 :

The turbo is integrated into the manifold. Turbo upgrades are doable, but it's not as simple as a turbo swap, fueling adjustments and remapping the ECU. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/3/22 4:44 p.m.

In reply to Berck :

That is why I was happy to hear that the engine in the S60R was basically a 600hp engine detuned to 300.

Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox, though.

fidelity101
fidelity101 UberDork
4/3/22 6:06 p.m.
Berck said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Focus RS is similar, but a little more fancy using a computer controlled dual clutch pack in the rear and a fixed power takeoff unit instead of a center diff. Modern clutch materials are impressive, but of course these are wet clutches which makes dealing with constant slip easier.  I suspect that worry about those clutch materials at high temps is why the Focus RS only lets me drive about 20 minutes on the track before it decides the rear drive unit is too hot, opens the clutches and turns it into a 350hp FWD machine which is funny, but not particularly fun.

this is why I hate the focus RS. huge let down - the Toyota should triumph gloriously in this area I hope. 

Berck
Berck Reader
4/3/22 6:20 p.m.

In reply to fidelity101 :

I mean, it depends on what your desires/expectations are.  The RS is great for what I bought for--fun street car that can handle snow.  I didn't find it particularly fun on the track, and it's so clever at correcting for bad driving it actively got in the way of my wife learning how to drive on the track.  I'd much rather drive the Miata on the track any day.

But it was absolutely advertised for track use, (though only 30 minute sessions!), and its performance in that area was disappointing.  In addition to the RDU disconnect after 20 minutes, the oil temperature was nearing the 300F redline and the brakes went squishy on the factory fluid.  On a fairly cool day in Colorado.  Track use (especially at altitude) is just brutal, and Ford should have been more up front about the limitations.  I don't know if the Corolla will do any better in terms of track longevity, but I doubt it'll do any worse.

Mr. Lee
Mr. Lee GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/3/22 9:33 p.m.

Our '21 XSE hatch came in at 29k. That's fully loaded. Actually got a letter from the dealership offering purchase price for trade in the other day so while I was at the dealership getting it serviced I looked around the lot. They had less than 10 new units on the lot. 1 Camry an Avalon a fully loaded tundra and a handful of Tacoma's and highlanders.  They asked if there was anything that would possibly interest us to trade in the rolla. RAV4 hybrid is the only thing SWMBO would consider so that was the answer.  They can't find one. 
 

So unless they sort this crap out. Good luck finding one. The core edition in 2wd would tickle me to death. But awd never hurts. The other issue We've got 0.9% financing on our 21. That was the reason for going ahead with with the XSE trim. Not sure it will happen again anytime soon. 
 

To answer the first question. 35-40k though if they start the core edition at 32 I'll be in line. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/3/22 9:52 p.m.
te72 said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That's kinda what I'm looking forward to. The Supras can put the power down, but you are somewhat surface limited, and around here the surfaces aren't usually good. You learn to drive around it, and learn to handle a car with the rear wheels always spinning, but I've never had an awd. Good friend of mine says it's practically cheating how easy it is to drive in the snow and ice.

I had two all wheel drive cars before the Volvo, but they had dumb diffs and no power.  My HSQ moment was when I was at a light and punched it while making a right turn.  No sturm, no drang, just 300ft-lb moving the car, changing direction and accelerating in a way that felt like cheating.

Then I did the same thing in the rain.  That time I KNEW I was cheating smiley

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
4/3/22 10:44 p.m.

After daily driving s2000, c6 z06, and f80 M3 (in succession)  year round with snows here in Wisconsin, my current TT RS feels like total cheat mode with the used snows from the M3 on it.  Similar power: weight, but just puts it down in conditions the M3 was lighting them up.  I'm cheering for the GR Corolla... Was tempted by Golf R, STi, and Veloster N, but the ridiculous Audi I5 DAZA motor won me over for what will probably be my last pure ICE daily.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
4/3/22 11:14 p.m.

In reply to turtl631 :

Audi's are just totally amazing cars in crap weather.  In my S4 of old, I tormented every performance car on the planet whenever the roads were slick.  It was almost comically fun.  You can drive Audi's in plain silly fashion on crap roads.  The real danger is that an Audi is capable of mad acceleration in bad conditions, but stopping is about as terrible as any other car on similar tires. 

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
4/4/22 8:38 a.m.
fidelity101 said:
Berck said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Focus RS is similar, but a little more fancy using a computer controlled dual clutch pack in the rear and a fixed power takeoff unit instead of a center diff. Modern clutch materials are impressive, but of course these are wet clutches which makes dealing with constant slip easier.  I suspect that worry about those clutch materials at high temps is why the Focus RS only lets me drive about 20 minutes on the track before it decides the rear drive unit is too hot, opens the clutches and turns it into a 350hp FWD machine which is funny, but not particularly fun.

this is why I hate the focus RS. huge let down - the Toyota should triumph gloriously in this area I hope. 

The "GR AWD" system uses the same clutch coupling system as the Focus RS, but one clutch before the rear diff instead of a clutch after the diff at each axle (which allowed the RS to torque vector).   So in a way it is less complex and less capable than a "dual clutch" AWD system. Notably, both systems overdrive/overspeed the rear differential.

In that sense it is most definitely possible to overheat the clutch packs, just like the RS, and it also would default to a FWD drivetrain with AWD limp mode.  Most modern AWD Systems with a clutch pack use a temperature model for the clutches (sensor for the sump oil temp), and puts the system into limp or protection mode at a certain temp.  Even RWD based AWD systems do this.  How often it overheats and in what conditions depends on how the system was designed, the temp model is calibrated, and driving conditions.  More wheelspeed differential will drive higher clutch temps, so low-mu gravel/snow will increase clutch temps in general, this might not bode well for the GR AWD system in rally use.  Team O'Neil ran into these issues with trying to campaign the RS in stage rally.

From Yaris AWD System explanation:

"The system’s ECU controls the drive torque distribution to suit the driving situation, according to data gathered on vehicle performance such as speed, acceleration, braking and steering. Electronic control of the multi-plate clutch uses information from the wheel speed and G sensors and the clutch’s temperature sensor." - Not common to have a clutch temp sensor built into the clutche coupling themselves, so this may be marketing jargon and there might be a temperature model with a oil temp sensor.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-gr-yaris-awd-system-can-overheat-this-is-what-happens-when-it-does-166717.html

The Evo X had a similar system as the RS (and Honda's SHAWD) with two clutch packs at the rear diff, but there aren't many reports from overheating the rear diff on those.

Compared to the RS: as mentioned it is a FWD trans with PTU, as opposed to an AWD transmission with center differential.  Rear diff is also oversped/overdriven.  The 

Yaris GR AWD has a single clutch pack before the rear differential, which is oversped from the front (so the clutch is constantly slipping with AWD engaged, except in the 30/70 split where the clutch packs are locked).

https://www.gr-yaris.co.uk/forum/threads/gr-yaris-awd-system-explained.916/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetY5CSckPg

NickD
NickD MegaDork
4/4/22 9:41 a.m.

Pretty interesting that the first motorsport debut of the Corolla GR was in Formula Drift this weekend, with Ryan Tuerck driving the Papadakis Racing Corolla GR, and it qualified first and won the event. The car actually began life as a Scion iM (remember those), then was reskinned as a Corolla iM, then as the Corolla Hatchback, and then this year was updated to a Corolla GR. It uses all the stock Corolla suspension pickup points and strut tower and firewall, but uses a 1000hp 2AR turned north-south feeding a sequential gearbox and then a MkIV Supra differential housing with racing guts (it also uses MkIV Supra rear wheel bearing/hub assemblies).

They had to have the car present for Media Day on Wednesday and practice on Thursday, and the Corolla GR hadn't been unveiled, so they had to camouflage the front and rear of the car, and then were able to unveil it on Friday for qualifying.

Toyota had a pretty solid presence at Formula D this weekend. There were three GR Supras (2 with the B58 engine and 1 with a 2JZ), the GR Corolla, and two of the new GR86s (one with an LS engine and one with the GR Supra B58 engine). 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/4/22 10:12 a.m.
fidelity101 said:
Berck said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Focus RS is similar, but a little more fancy using a computer controlled dual clutch pack in the rear and a fixed power takeoff unit instead of a center diff. Modern clutch materials are impressive, but of course these are wet clutches which makes dealing with constant slip easier.  I suspect that worry about those clutch materials at high temps is why the Focus RS only lets me drive about 20 minutes on the track before it decides the rear drive unit is too hot, opens the clutches and turns it into a 350hp FWD machine which is funny, but not particularly fun.

this is why I hate the focus RS. huge let down - the Toyota should triumph gloriously in this area I hope. 

They sell diff coolers for the RS. 

They have to do the same thing for Mustang GTs because the diff overheats in track use for fast drivers and pukes fluid everywhere. 

te72
te72 Reader
4/4/22 10:12 a.m.
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to te72 :

The turbo is integrated into the manifold. Turbo upgrades are doable, but it's not as simple as a turbo swap, fueling adjustments and remapping the ECU. 

Long as the manifold isn't integrated into the head, that would be fine. From what I've seen, this isn't a concern here. =)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/4/22 10:19 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I thought the issue with the FoRS diff was that the temperature was calculated, not measured.  You can cool it all you like but the module will assume that it is overheating.

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
4/4/22 12:27 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I thought the issue with the FoRS diff was that the temperature was calculated, not measured.  You can cool it all you like but the module will assume that it is overheating.

That's exactly right, the clutch temperature and rear diff temp is modeled.  The power take off from the trans (PTU) temp has an oil sensor, but the rear diff (RDU) actual clutch temp is a model based off that and other inputs. So even if one were to improve the physical cooling, the model would not know and the limp mode would still occur (unless you have some ability to flash a diff controller, unlikely, or calibrate an aftermarket diff controller like Syvecs).  Reducing the oil temps might help, but it won't solve the root cause if the RDU is overheating.

EDIT: it sounds like both the PTU and RDU are overheating in the RS. PTU overheats, so the RDU model based on PTU temp goes into limp mode.  Some are experimenting with PTU cooling to avoid this (effectively cooling the temp input into the RDU model), and RDU coolers as well.

https://www.focusrsforum.com/threads/diffs-hot-take-it-easy-mishimotos-focus-rs-rear-diff-cooler-r-d.458/

Now the question would be how does this work in the GR AWD system?  There's likely a clutch temp model but what is it based on, and is there any fluid/hardware that can be cooled to reduce AWD shutdowns?

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
4/4/22 1:09 p.m.

Our dreams of Corolla GR's taking over the streets is not aligned with toyota's goals.  This is pretty low, for reference the 2003 Evo8 was 7100 units, 2006 Evo 9 ended with roughly 8200 units.

"Toyota's maintaining flexibility for that reason, but Tripp says the company is predicting that a full year of sales will end up around 8000 units. Expect 2023 to fall shy of that number, with the production ramp and limited early availability limiting total sales to around 6000 cars."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a39612033/gr-corolla-production-numbers/

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/4/22 1:09 p.m.

In reply to engiekev :

HPT claims ability to tune the FoRS's RDU.  The old tune repository is gone and I have not checked lately to see if anyone has uploaded a stock tune so I can poke around in it.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/7/22 11:19 p.m.

4/06 Toyota Video is talking big talk. I am the excited - still

JAdams
JAdams GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/8/22 8:30 a.m.

In reply to thashane :

Just watched the video again and holy E36 M3 am I excited about the release of this car. I've never been so ready to hand over my money.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/8/22 10:09 a.m.

In reply to JAdams :

ya, sames'. I was going to put an LSD in the MINI, but now I'd rather put that money towards another Corolla. 

Aaron_King
Aaron_King PowerDork
4/8/22 3:40 p.m.

According to Edmunds.com Toyota is only going to build 6600 of these things for the first year:

Only 6,600 units will be produced for the 2023 model year

Median
Median New Reader
4/8/22 3:54 p.m.

I was hoping that they would make more. Then I could maybe have a chance of getting one.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/9/22 12:01 a.m.

In reply to Aaron_King :

I hope they all come with the performance package

te72
te72 Reader
4/9/22 12:05 a.m.

I don't need one first year, though a Circuit Edition would be nice. I like a couple of the extra touches. Will it be worth the extra expense? That remains to be seen. I could just as easily make a base model look as nice with a set of Work wheels...

 

So, being as this is GRM and all, anyone think it'd be possible to convert a normal E210 Corolla into one of these? With the price of a quality paint job these days, it makes me wonder if that'd be the more economical way of getting a Galactic Aqua GR Corolla. =P

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
4/9/22 8:11 a.m.

Looks like the core package is the way to go with perf pack. The circuit wing really makes it look like a hot hatch, hoping it's possible to get that separate or the aftermarket will step in with a similar offering.

 Only 1500 circuit will be made and only offered in 2023.

With production delays, will we ever see these on the lot (and give us a chance to even get one close to MSRP), or will deposit/preorders simply go right into the customers hand with markups? Even into 2023, production is still likely to be slow all around the industry. And with electrification taking off, how many years will this be in production, 2 to 3 max? 3 years puts it at 2023, 2024, 2025 model years. In 2025 the base chassis Corolla might be phased out. This kind of lines up with the RS; they started so late into the base chassis life cycle, it was only offered for 3 years.

Hopefully they see the demand and increase numbers beyond 6600 after the first model year 2023. They're probably starting pretty late into 2022, so it's promising 2024 model year will have more numbers.

RX8driver
RX8driver Reader
4/9/22 12:06 p.m.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's already over 6600 deposits in North America only. The dealer I went to serves maybe ~20,000 people and when I went to put down my deposit a few hours before the official release, I was second in line, someone beating me to the punch earlier that day.

Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
4/9/22 10:03 p.m.

I've contacted a few dealers and none of them are interested in taking a deposit until more details are released.  I feel like I'm missing out!  

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
4/9/22 10:46 p.m.

In reply to Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) :

Here's what the dealer near me said - I called her before the unveiling.

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon UltraDork
4/9/22 10:52 p.m.

I'm hoping they sell every single one and it leads to them also selling a more attainable/medium-hot Corolla. Like a Civic Si competitor if the GR Corolla is the Type R equivalent.

te72
te72 Reader
4/10/22 3:30 a.m.

Anyone remember the Corolla XRS? I always thought of that one as the AE111 we never received here.

 

I reached out to Mark Miller Toyota, so far, no meaningful response. Either they're super busy, or not interested in my business. All I asked was if it would be possible to get my name put on a list...

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/10/22 9:36 a.m.
te72 said:

Anyone remember the Corolla XRS? I always thought of that one as the AE111 we never received here.

 

I reached out to Mark Miller Toyota, so far, no meaningful response. Either they're super busy, or not interested in my business. All I asked was if it would be possible to get my name put on a list...

There was a Celica at AX yesterday, and it reminded me of an XRS my buddy had 15? years ago. I was amused when the car wouldnt let him into i-vtec (or whatever it was called) until it was warm enough. 

te72
te72 Reader
4/10/22 4:57 p.m.

In reply to thashane :

I remember that a buddy's Prelude back in the day back in the day that would do the same thing. Probably a means of keeping the bearings from getting destroyed because the oil isn't gonna flow fast enough.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
4/10/22 8:34 p.m.

I wonder if they'll sell a crate engine of this motor. It would be sweet for swapping. 300hp 3.cyl heck yeah. 

te72
te72 Reader
4/10/22 10:59 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

I have an Exocet with a home for it if that's the case. Depending on weight, of course. Current plan is a 4P K340, but weight is paramount with that car.

Vracer111
Vracer111 HalfDork
4/12/22 6:37 a.m.
thashane said:

4/06 Toyota Video is talking big talk. I am the excited - still

What I like about that commercial is it has musical elements/tones from the first Scion FR-S commercial...

If were in financial position to do so I would absolutely love a GR Corolla... economy rally car... yes please. Wish Toyota would have done this a few years ago....

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/12/22 7:31 a.m.
dculberson said:

I wonder if they'll sell a crate engine of this motor. It would be sweet for swapping. 300hp 3.cyl heck yeah. 

Depending on the physical dimensions and transmission availability, that engine sounds like it would be awesome in a classic Mini.

thashane
thashane GRM+ Memberand Reader
4/12/22 10:13 a.m.

In reply to Vracer111 :

they kinda did with the GR Yaris - just not in North America. I'm thinking FRS/86 sales are who we really have to thank for this, and the Civic TR. I wonder how well the Rolla would've been received if it wasnt foreshadowed by the Yaris.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/12/22 1:28 p.m.
Vracer111 said:
thashane said:

4/06 Toyota Video is talking big talk. I am the excited - still

What I like about that commercial is it has musical elements/tones from the first Scion FR-S commercial...

If were in financial position to do so I would absolutely love a GR Corolla... economy rally car... yes please. Wish Toyota would have done this a few years ago....

What rally cars WEREN'T economy cars?  Only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Stratos, and various Ferraris.

j_tso
j_tso GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/12/22 2:05 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Quattro, 911, 240Z, A110. but that's going back when rally cars were sports cars.

It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota switched to the Corolla in WRC like Ford went from the Fiesta to the Puma. There'd be more room for suspension and aero mods.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/12/22 4:23 p.m.

In reply to j_tso :

The Corolla is too large for WRC.  Same reason Ford went to the Fiesta, the maximum dimensions changed so they had to go to a different car.

Not that it matters for anything but marketing, as a production GR does not have a 4 cylinder engine, clutch diffs (Torsen diffs are banned, if they even wanted to use them), or a semiautomatic transmission.

j_tso
j_tso GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/12/22 6:48 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

This year Ford switched to the Puma mini-SUV, though it isn't that different from the Fiesta. They said for marketability rather than any performance advantage, although the size probably came in handy for fitting the mandated hybrid powertrains. Plus the cars no longer have production chassis and are tube framed.

Just read that the GR Corolla won't be sold in Europe, so a WRC car is extremely unlikely unless the other GR car is discontinued.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/12/22 7:02 p.m.

In reply to j_tso :

I don't think they have had to be production chassis or engines for ten years or so.

They also went to a spec gearbox a while back, which is why Subaru bowed out. They were getting less and less competitive and with the rule change, they figured on leaving rather than trying to get a variance.

j_tso
j_tso GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/12/22 7:17 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Did not know about the gearbox, but I thought it was because everyone was hurting in 2008, which is why Honda bowed out of F1.

Subaru debuted the STi hatchback WRC car midway through that season and it got a podium first time out. It was pretty disappointing for them to quit after not even a full season with a new car and leaving Petter Solberg high and dry.

Median
Median New Reader
4/12/22 7:25 p.m.

In reply to j_tso :

There is no spec gearbox in WRC. The new hybrid unit is a spec component, but how it interacts with the transmission is up to the teams. 

The new 2022 Rally 1 cars are not based on production body shells and they are allowed to stretch or shrink the silhouette to match the new regulated size. So in theory a Corolla Rally 1 would be the same size as a Yaris Rally 1.

te72
te72 Reader
4/12/22 11:19 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:rent car.

Not that it matters for anything but marketing, as a production GR does not have a 4 cylinder engine, clutch diffs (Torsen diffs are banned, if they even wanted to use them), or a semiautomatic transmission.

My understanding of Torsen diffs is that if you have one wheel off the ground, you have zero drive on the planted wheel, acting like an open diff. I can confirm this to be the case with Miata Torsen diffs, though I'm not sure how that would apply to an awd.

 

If that is the case... seems like a bad fit for a car that occasionally (frequently?) has at least one wheel off the ground... if not more.

rslifkin
rslifkin UberDork
4/13/22 8:04 a.m.
te72 said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:rent car.

Not that it matters for anything but marketing, as a production GR does not have a 4 cylinder engine, clutch diffs (Torsen diffs are banned, if they even wanted to use them), or a semiautomatic transmission.

My understanding of Torsen diffs is that if you have one wheel off the ground, you have zero drive on the planted wheel, acting like an open diff. I can confirm this to be the case with Miata Torsen diffs, though I'm not sure how that would apply to an awd.

 

If that is the case... seems like a bad fit for a car that occasionally (frequently?) has at least one wheel off the ground... if not more.

Generally, yes, as the torsen can give a multiple of the torque the lower traction wheel is receiving to the higher traction wheel.  0 x 5 is still 0.  Although it's possible to build a torsen that has some amount of pre-load (and can transfer some power while a wheel is off the ground).  The Eaton True-Trac in the front of my Jeep is a pre-loaded torsen, for example. 

clshore
clshore Reader
4/13/22 12:41 p.m.
dculberson said:

I wonder if they'll sell a crate engine of this motor. It would be sweet for swapping. 300hp 3.cyl heck yeah. 

Yes, I'm doing a 200 HP Honda L15B7 swap into a Spitfire/GT6, but the GR motor would be even better!! Shorter, lighter, more powerful ...
Anyone know what Totota RWD transmissions might mate to this puppy?

There is BTW, a Japanese project underway to do a RWD GR swap.

 

te72
te72 Reader
4/14/22 12:59 a.m.

In reply to rslifkin :

Hadn't considered the idea of pre-load, that makes sense. I'm more familiar with how clutch pack diffs like the one in my Mk3 Supra work. When shaking down the Exocet, I forgot to install the front sway bar (the rear was never removed from the subframe), and it had a comical way of lifting the inside rear wheel on turns. Bit of a bummer on corner exit on an autocross, but downright spooky and kinda unpredictable in slaloms...

te72
te72 Reader
4/14/22 1:02 a.m.

In reply to clshore :

In regards to a Toyota transmission that would bolt to this G16, you might look into the specs on a W58. They can handle some power, though they're not the best if you plan on abusing it. Fortunately there are plenty of them in the wild, and they're a great shifting transmission for RWD applications.

 

Alternatively, and perhaps even a better option, would be the Aisin six speed that you find in the FRS/BRZ/86, S2000, Miata, RX8, etc.

 

Speaking of gearing though... does anyone know what the final drive ratio on the GR Corolla is supposed to be? Seeing transmission ratios is nice and all, but that doesn't help much when trying to calculate gear speeds for autocross use. =)

clshore
clshore Reader
4/14/22 10:30 p.m.

Here's a link to the Japanese GR16 RWD swap into an AE86:

Is this Yaris GR-Powered Toyota AE86 the best JDM restomod ever? (sxdrv.com)

And apparently, you CAN buy the motor directly from Toyota (hint: bring the BIG wallet)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/15/22 10:59 a.m.

Read up on the engine, it is the spec engine for a GT86 based one make series.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/15/22 12:25 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

So they're not using the FA for that series? I wonder why.

j_tso
j_tso GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/15/22 1:10 p.m.

Unless there's another series, everything I've read about the Toyota 86 series and GR Cup says they use the FA.

t321sg
t321sg New Reader
6/9/22 9:09 p.m.

In reply to gearheadE30 :

Agreed - When I am driving it, I only see the dash. Exterior styling is only important when you leave it sit in the driveway and stare at it from the porch. And why would you buy this car for that?

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