What do we really know about that Toyota GR86 engine failure?

J.G.
By J.G. Pasterjak
Aug 4, 2022 | Toyota, gr86, Engine Failure

Photography Credit: Courtesy Toyota

You may have noticed that we haven’t said much about a situation currently sweeping social media: the non-warranty of a detonated 2022 Toyota GR86 after the dealership learned the owner was using it in “drifting” events (which was actually an autocross).

We haven’t discussed it much because we don’t have complete or verifiable information. Most of us don’t, which is a big reason this story has become so big so quickly.

See, the story entered the court of social media long before there was a resolution, or even a path to a resolution. Armed with incomplete details, the mob–something we’ve all been guilty of being a part of–jumped to a lot of conclusions very quickly.

Unfortunately, in the real world, actual conclusions are difficult to come by, particularly when a large, multinational company like Toyota is involved.

We are pursuing the story, and while we haven’t done a complete deep dive on every nut and bolt of the incident, we do know a few things after conversations on background with some of the parties involved. In the interest of maybe keeping the discussion constructive, here are a few things to think about as this story develops:

  • Most of the information in the automotive media currently is all stemming from the same source, the original social media dustup. Outlets are feeding off each other to get content up as soon as possible. We get it, it’s part of the game, and we all have bills to pay. But don’t think that when outlet X posts something that it “adds” to the discussion, because outlet X’s post is mostly just a rephrasing of outlet Y’s coverage, which simply used outlet Z’s original story as a source.
  • The body denying the warranty claim is NOT Toyota. It’s Gulf States ToyotaGulf States Toyota is an independent distributor that buys cars from Toyota and resells them to the public through its dealer network. At this time, we do not believe that Toyota corporate had knowledge of the issue before it hit social media.
  • We are working to ascertain at what level Toyota corporate is aware of this particular situation and of a possible larger issue with the engines in question. It’s important to note that, at this time, we see no evidence that Toyota believes this failure is part of a larger pattern, but there is enough public concern that it is deeply investigating the matter.
  • One of the takeaway messages here is this: If you have an issue with a car under warranty and can’t get satisfaction from the dealer, escalate your concern to a corporate-level source. The fact that this issue has not been resolved satisfactorily seems to stem, in large part, from difficult dealings with Gulf States Toyota, which, because of its operation outside the corporate sphere, comes with a difficult trail of accountability as things escalate.
  • Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media. Check sources, even if it means just opening a second browser tab and googling the name of a person or a company. It seems a lot of the heat around this incident stems from information that is quickly thrown into the public sphere and lacks context. Sometimes, simply providing that context can help better ground a story in reality.

We hope this situation is resolved satisfactorily for all involved. In the meantime, we’ll continue to report on it when we have verifiable information to report.

Update | August 4, 9:00 a.m.:

We talked to Blake, the owner of the GR86 in question, yesterday around 5:30 p.m., and a lot had happened in the 24 hours since the story broke.

Long story short, the issue reached Toyota corporate, and they have expressed to him that they are going to take care of him under warranty. Aside from that, there's really not much we can say because the rest of the situation is now under investigation to determine what information that got out to the public was true, what was hyperbole, what was outright false, and who might have been responsible for the mishandling of this claim, or whether the claim was handled properly but the policy was bad, or a million other permutations of situations to determine how it went from a guy buying a brand-new car that should theoretically have been able to handle such use to a guy with a broken car and an internet firestorm.

Another matter at hand is the assembly of the engines in question, and whether there is indeed a related production problem leading to this failure. There is anecdotal evidence in the public sphere at the moment showing that this RTV situation might not be an isolated incident. Anecdotes are not data, but anecdotes are worthy of further exploration to determine whether data is present, and it is our understanding that Toyota is currently at that point. We're pursuing that line of investigation and will update you when we know stuff.

Another, more holistic, question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily into using track performance as a marketing tool on the front end, how does that affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? We’ll be discussing this in editorial meetings and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

Update | August 4, 12:45 p.m.:

From Blake, owner of the GR86:

Toyota has decided to honor the warranty claim on my engine. I'm very happy that my situation is finally on a path to resolution. I'd like to personally thank my motorsports family as well as the internet at large for supporting my situation.

The public response ultimately brought to light the elephant in the room that is marketing vs warranty policy. This is something that won't get solved overnight, but I would like to see Toyota regain the trust of the enthusiast market it intends to capture with their GR brand. A step toward this would be reaffirming that track days and similar events should NOT void a valid warranty claim for a manufacturer defect.

I still love the car as it's one of the most engaging and fun-to-drive vehicles currently on the market. I'd love to see Toyota and the GR brand take more involvement in supporting amateur motorsports and the enthusiasts who buy these cars.

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Comments
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paddygarcia
paddygarcia GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/3/22 11:16 a.m.

It's intriguing that a strong brand like Toyota still has private distributors vs a 50-state national sales company. 

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/3/22 11:18 a.m.

Thank you for following up on this.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/3/22 11:26 a.m.
paddygarcia said:

It's intriguing that a strong brand like Toyota still has private distributors vs a 50-state national sales company. 

I think they go WAY back. Take Toyota South East/Jim Moran here in South Florida. They helped Toyota become what they are today, its a partnership from day 1 of Toyota in the USA.

Jim Moran

"In early 1968, he was contacted by a friend from Chicago who said that Toyota wanted to establish a dealer network in the Southeast U.S. and wanted to talk to Jim Moran, who asked what a Toyota was. The company had been unsuccessful at breaking into the American market at the end of the 1950s and was trying again. Moran declined, but his friend was insistent that Moran drive one. According to Moran, he tested everything to see if it would break. While cruising at 55 mph on the interstate, Moran shifted into reverse, and the engine and transmission survived. Moran concluded that although Toyotas weren't as stylish or comfortable as domestic vehicles, they were well-built, reasonably priced, and destined to change the automotive business.[11] On October 26, 1968 he entered into an agreement to distribute Toyota vehicles from the port in Jacksonville, Florida to the states of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, North and South Carolina. His Southeast Toyota Distributors (SET) was founded that year[12] and in 2006, distributed over 400,000 vehicles, 20% of all new Toyotas sold in the United States. "

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
8/3/22 11:32 a.m.
  • Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media. Check sources, even if it means just opening a second browser tab and googling the name of a person or a company. It seems a lot of the heat around this incident stems from information that is quickly thrown into the public sphere and lacks context. Sometimes, simply providing that context can help better ground a story in reality.

Truth!

Sk1dmark (Forum Supporter)
Sk1dmark (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/3/22 11:33 a.m.

In reply to Slippery :

And sure enough from the wikipedia page Gulf States Toyota opened in 1969, making them early adopters in the US.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 11:34 a.m.

I think what we're really learning from this is how byzantine corporate structures can become. When you're buying a Toyota from a dealer, there might be a couple of different levels between the dealer and the actual entity that bolted the car together - especially since it's a Subaru. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/3/22 12:05 p.m.

This rational, cautious approach to a controversial subject is a good example of why I am proud to be a member of the GRM community.

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
8/3/22 12:44 p.m.

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

logdog (Forum Supporter)
logdog (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/3/22 12:49 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I think what we're really learning from this is how byzantine corporate structures can become. When you're buying a Toyota from a dealer, there might be a couple of different levels between the dealer and the actual entity that bolted the car together - especially since it's a Subaru. 

Thats a good point.  It especially gets complicated with import companies.  Generally speaking if you buy a domestic in the US you are buying something the parent company designed, engineered and built, then retailed to dealers for sale to customers.

Disclaimer - These are just assumptions based on experience dealing with imports at a corporate level-

With an import like Toyota you may have a set up where the parent company is in Japan.  Then you have Toyota Motor North America that is a "totally separate company (wink wink)" that buys the cars from the parent in Japan, then sells them to distributors that then sell them to the dealers.  The fact they name their US plants things like "Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky" and their R&D "Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America" tells me those are also likely "totally separate companies (wink wink)".

What you end up with is a giant pair of Japanese pants with pockets all over the world arguing about who gets to hold the money laugh

gcmak
gcmak
8/3/22 1:03 p.m.

Looking forward to the additional details your team uncovers. Staying tuned.

Matt B (fs)
Matt B (fs) UltraDork
8/3/22 1:13 p.m.

In reply to ztnedman1 :

It does seem like a false economy to me as well.  Perhaps it likely stems from these corporate middle-men distribution structures.  They may not have a strong financial incentive to protect certain niche model reputations as much as the actual manufacturer.  Or maybe it's just plain old short-sightedness for the sake of quarterly earning reports.

tremm
tremm Reader
8/3/22 1:14 p.m.

Fool me once.

Wonder how many people are going to see that headline and say nope. Seems like Toyota has little to gain, and lots to lose, with the Subaru/BMW relationships. I don't get it. Maybe Toyota needs licensing from them or something; I don't understand what value the companies have to offer Toyota.

Opiewho
Opiewho New Reader
8/3/22 1:21 p.m.
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

That is assuming that the reason for the denial was actually his participation in a Motorsports activity. Only the owner at this point has stated that as the reason. As GRM states, we should not jump to conclusions....for all we know the guy didn't fill up the oil fully on the oil changes he performed himself.

arthuruscg
arthuruscg New Reader
8/3/22 1:23 p.m.

In reply to paddygarcia :

Especially when the distributor has the power to control the PR for the OEM. It's no longer the days where 1 bad experience is spread by word of mouth to a few people, now, it can be spread fast enough to have a large affect next months sales numbers.

Just think about how many people were about to buy but decided to wait until this plays out.

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
8/3/22 1:29 p.m.

I'm going through a similar issue with our Porsche cayenne diesel. The dealer states that Porsche denied a warranty claim, but Porsche is stating that the dealership is totally independent from them and has the final say (insert spiderman meme)

Straight from Porsche customer care rep: "Porsche dealerships are independent businesses and conduct day-to-day business as they see fit. To that end, yes, the decision is ultimately up to a dealership’s individual assessment."  

 

Per another source:

"Dealers are not Porsche per se – they are independent companies who own a franchise right to represent Porsche – just like most McDonald's restaurants. This provides them with the closest connection to the manufacturer, easier access to resources and strict rules of operation within that franchise agreement."

https://www.pcarwise.com/news/independent-repair-shop-versus-dealer-service-be-careful-with-this-comparison/#:~:text=Dealers%20are%20not%20Porsche%20per,operation%20within%20that%20franchise%20agreement.

I wonder how this varies between OEMs.

 

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
8/3/22 1:32 p.m.

I was there when said engine seized. It was the first run of their heat and even worse it was his co-driver that got the run where it decided to call it quits. That's about all I can validate other than he has been at most of the events in our region this season. Not a hoon it till it blows type of guy. A serious I love autocross type of guy. One of us as far as I'm concerned. When we pushed the car on the trailer he was particular as to where we could even touch the car when rolling it onto a trailer to be taken home. He was gutted. If it truly was the snake mess of sealant in the oil pickup that did the bearings in, I don't see how they can refuse to repair or replace.

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
8/3/22 1:50 p.m.
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

What's the story with the ND1? As much as I like the 86/BRZ, I think the Subaru engine was a bit of a mistake. I wish they had updated the 3SGE to meet emission standards, or even just put a higher compression head on the 2.0 they use in the Corolla. My girlfriend's Mazda3 has a more joyful engine than the flat 4 in the 1st gen BRZ. I'm less sympathetic to the cost-sharing between two brands for a low volume sports car considering how good the ND2 Miata is, and how little it shares with the rest of Mazda's lineup. With that said, I'm glad these cars exist at all, but if I was looking to buy one I'd probably pad my budget for engine problems.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/3/22 1:53 p.m.

This is ironic.  I agree.  We don't know all of the facts.  But I will also point out this isn't a big deal.  It's just an engine in a car.  However, you'll find tons of media and people here that jump to conclusions on world events, court cases, and laws without even doing basic research.  The irony is thick here.  
 

I could create a list of examples, but I don't want to anger the mob by pointing out what should be so obvious.  
 

Living in a country where an hour will be spent looking at the spot of a football in a meaningless game from every angle but people will demand legal action without understanding basic civics or current laws is nearly comedic.

But the poor engine.....  

 

So yes I agree.  I just wish everyone and all media could see the broader applicability.  

Hoondavan
Hoondavan HalfDork
8/3/22 1:57 p.m.

This escalated quickly. I saw something about it on a FB group I follow & saw the memes here this morning .  GRM Memes is how I stay in touch w/emerging news and cultural events these days. Did you know George Jettson (the cartoon) was born on 7/31/2022?!?

I would like to know more & I'm sure there's lots of information that hasn't been disclosed at this point.  The fact it's the dealer franchise, not Toyota, denying the warranty is new information (thanks, GRM!).  

Something about the interaction likely caused somebody someone at the dealership to stalk this guy's social media profiles. I think it's worth each of us rethinking how we use social media.  Using personal, easily identifiable information on social media could impact your profession or possessions. What's to keep your insurance company from deciding to drop coverage because you drive your car at track days or competitive events?  SCCA autocross registrations, results and photos are pretty easy to find online.  Most employers probably do the same thing.

Once I get another auto-x/rally-x car I'll probably remove the license plate (FL) and look into using a different version of my actual name.

 

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
8/3/22 1:58 p.m.
engiekev said:

I'm going through a similar issue with our Porsche cayenne diesel. The dealer states that Porsche denied a warranty claim, but Porsche is stating that the dealership is totally independent from them and has the final say (insert spiderman meme)

Straight from Porsche customer care rep: "Porsche dealerships are independent businesses and conduct day-to-day business as they see fit. To that end, yes, the decision is ultimately up to a dealership’s individual assessment."  

 

Per another source:

"Dealers are not Porsche per se – they are independent companies who own a franchise right to represent Porsche – just like most McDonald's restaurants. This provides them with the closest connection to the manufacturer, easier access to resources and strict rules of operation within that franchise agreement."

https://www.pcarwise.com/news/independent-repair-shop-versus-dealer-service-be-careful-with-this-comparison/#:~:text=Dealers%20are%20not%20Porsche%20per,operation%20within%20that%20franchise%20agreement.

I wonder how this varies between OEMs.

I realize this is getting off-topic but find this interesting. I thought that dealers are more than happy to do in-warranty repairs because they can charge the manufacturer at their shop rate. Maybe it varies mfg to mfg.

If it really is the individual dealer's decision, how about approaching a few different ones?

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
8/3/22 1:59 p.m.
Opiewho said:
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

That is assuming that the reason for the denial was actually his participation in a Motorsports activity. Only the owner at this point has stated that as the reason. As GRM states, we should not jump to conclusions....for all we know the guy didn't fill up the oil fully on the oil changes he performed himself.

 

Then shame on for Toyota for not speaking up.  This is growing legs and quickly.  Either they know about this growing legs/memes/websites and are letting this narrative grow or they don't know about it...both are bad/negligent. Unfortunately for them the court of public opinion DOES apply to people considering these vehicles.

 

Considering he had no clue this would catch on, and isn't the first on the main forum he originally posted too I have a hard time seeing why he would leave something so obvious out, before starting a crusade at someone else's recommendation.  Again this issue isn't the denail, it's that it was denied without being examined, rather just because of motorsport.  If they find he over reved,used wrong oil, under filled them that's fine, but you can't do that without even looking at the engine.  That engine was not torn down and checked, it was just denied because of evidence of motorsport.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 2:31 p.m.

Remember that just recently lemachin on this forum had warranty coverage denied on his 2016 BRZ when the engine sang the song of its people, because the dealership had found that he'd done HPDEs with it, and this was in Ontario...so the problem isn't specific to Gulf States Toyota or even Toyota in general.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 2:49 p.m.

In reply to dannyp84 :

ND1 had a transmission that was unique to the Miata and optimized for high efficiency. They started breaking when autocrossed. Mazda came out with about 5 versions trying to fix the problem and covered warranty replacement of the transmissions. 

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
8/3/22 2:53 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Oh I vaguely remember this, "optimized for high efficiency" meaning smaller/lighter and probably weaker components I suspect. If I remember correctly, the ND1 came with a smaller displacement engine in other markets, that transmission was probably up to the task for the small engine.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 2:54 p.m.

In reply to dannyp84 :

That's my theory as well. 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 3:19 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:

Remember that just recently lemachin on this forum had warranty coverage denied on his 2016 BRZ when the engine sang the song of its people, because the dealership had found that he'd done HPDEs with it, and this was in Ontario...so the problem isn't specific to Gulf States Toyota or even Toyota in general.

I do remember that. 

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/3/22 3:26 p.m.

Weird, the Subaru part of the Toyota was the first thing to go? Suuuuper weird. Big part of why I would choose an ND over a GT86, every time, even though the twins are great to drive.

 

"Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media. Check sources, even if it means just opening a second browser tab and googling the name of a person or a company. It seems a lot of the heat around this incident stems from information that is quickly thrown into the public sphere and lacks context. Sometimes, simply providing that context can help better ground a story in reality."

 

This. So much this. This should be the header, in bold, that you have to scroll past on ANY news site. Maybe then our critical thinking levels, as a society, will improve a bit. To note though, I'd rather someone be encouraged to *search* rather than use a specific (and frequently manipulative) search engine. =)

 

@Keith Tanner, did Mazda sort out the transmission issue by the time the ND2 was released? That's the version I'd be after anyhow.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
8/3/22 3:54 p.m.
  • Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media. Check sources, even if it means just opening a second browser tab and googling the name of a person or a company. It seems a lot of the heat around this incident stems from information that is quickly thrown into the public sphere and lacks context. Sometimes, simply providing that context can help better ground a story in reality.

Look I love this forum and this magazine. I've been helplessly wasting time reading these boards and subscribing to the magazine for decades. I find this statement comically ironic when comparing some of the narratives y'all were pedaling in 2020. I'm happy you're pushing people to validate sources, ensure stories have corroborating evidence, and ensuring that individuals do their due diligence before coming to a conclusion now. It's a sign of growth and wisdom. 

The amount of different variations of this story that have popped up across the plethora of mediums has been interesting. If there is one good thing to come of all the attention this has garnered, it is that big Toyota USA is now going to look into the issue. 

I'm curious if this will spark a joint effort by Subaru to do the same. 

The memes; however, have been absolutely excellent. 

GTI_2032
GTI_2032 GRM+ Memberand New Reader
8/3/22 3:59 p.m.

I second escalating to corporate if the dealer isn't playing ball.  Made the difference between paying for a transmission rebuild or having it covered under warranty.   May not always work but it doesn't hurt to try.  

BA5
BA5 GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/3/22 4:34 p.m.

Finally, remember to be a responsible consumer of media.

oooohhhooooo no you don't.  I have zero dog in the fight but I'm going to read the headline and get out the pitchforks!  My hot take on this is going out on every major media platform on the globe ASAP.

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
8/3/22 4:37 p.m.

te72, that was my exact response. It's a Subaru engine, pretty much what I'd suspect.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 4:39 p.m.

In reply to te72 :

As far as I know, the transmission problems have been sorted out. It wasn't an ND1/ND2 thing, it was a series of running changes to the trans with various VIN splits.

If I were running an ND trans on the track, I'd change out the case studs (fairly easy to do even with the trans in the car) and install a cooler. Our testing has shown that it's not that hard to get the transmission oil to 300F, and it stays there for a very long time once you've heat-soaked it. That'll give the trans the best chance of surviving.

Our development ND has a set of expensive aftermarket gears in it to ensure it doesn't break, but that's because we're not interested in testing transmissions and we can't afford down time in a testing program.

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/3/22 6:44 p.m.

IIRC there were like five revisions of nd1 trans, it seems like either they finally resolved it or most everyone has just stopped autocrossing them by now. The global cup cars got switched to a fancy racing sequential at some point. The nd2 has a dual mass flywheel and maybe another revision of transmission, and I don't think I've heard of any failing.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/3/22 7:14 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Correct me if I am wrong, but Subaru played this same card many years ago when they had problems with weak gearboxes. They gave out free SCCA memberships ( or something similar) and then used the data from entry forms to deny warranty claims. 

 

Always tell the people that ask about the FRS that the only bad part is the Subaru part.

No Time
No Time SuperDork
8/3/22 7:21 p.m.

In reply to Hoondavan :

So I wonder which dealership employee is frustrated by not being able to match the times of the owner of the car?

My cynical side wonders if Toyota sitting back to watch what happens while the dealer taking the heat, and when they feel it's the right time they can jump in as the hero to cover the claim?

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
8/3/22 8:10 p.m.

Interesting to note that this is being picked up on by the Japanese as well...

(First comment roughly translated: 3,000 miles (4,800 km) after delivery, the engine seems to have locked up  Summer production  When going out, we recommend that you perform maintenance before going out )

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 8:13 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

I remember the same thing. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/3/22 10:17 p.m.
pointofdeparture said:

Interesting to note that this is being picked up on by the Japanese as well...

(First comment roughly translated: 3,000 miles (4,800 km) after delivery, the engine seems to have locked up  Summer production  When going out, we recommend that you perform maintenance before going out )

That's a screenshot from a video from months ago. And IIRC the car has just left the dealer, so I don't think it's related.

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
8/3/22 10:34 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Right, but if people are talking about the oil pickup getting clogged across the Pacific in Toyota/Subaru's homeland, that means that word is getting around, and I would guess similar things have been found there.

flatlander937
flatlander937 HalfDork
8/3/22 10:43 p.m.

I'm pretty close to the guy this happened to, though I don't have any super in depth info to share. What I DO have is a ton of memes.

 

 

 

 

 

I've got over 30 I made the last few days. If you're on any SCCA facebook groups you've probably seen most of them. Edit: figured out copy paste works pretty quick so a few more below.

flatlander937
flatlander937 HalfDork
8/3/22 10:48 p.m.

May be an image of 3 people and text that says 'GR86 OWNERS WITH IINL ENGINE FAILURES TOYOTA Jadult imgflip. com WHY ARE CAR ENTHUSIASTS BUYING OTHER VEHICLES?'

 

May be an image of 2 people and text that says 'TOYOTA PUTTING DOWN IT'S "GR" BRAND BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND CAR ENTHUSIASTS imgflip. com'

 

May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'Toyota Warranty enthusiast car for doing enthusiast car things OR draw 25 imgflip.c UNO'

 

May be a meme of 3 people and text that says 'TOYOTA PR TEAM RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE TRACK BRED" GR86 MARKETING imgflip.com'

 

May be an image of 2 people and text that says 'He's probably thinking about other women imgflip. com I wonder how much RTV is in the oil pickup of my GR86'

 

May be a cartoon of text

 

May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'TOYOTA GR86 OIL PICKUP TUBE YA'LL GOT ANY MORE OF THAT RTV mgflip. com'

 

May be a meme of 3 people and text that says 'You sealed the GR86 oil pan right? Of course. I used 3 tubes. imgflip. com'

 

May be an image of dog and text that says 'Such GR86 So Toyota Moderate vroom Much RTV imgflip.com Such voided warranty'

 

May be a meme of text that says 'MOTORSPORTS ENTHUSIAST BASE TOYOTA MOTORSPORTS ENTHUSIASTBASE REALITY OF SUPPORTING ENTHUSIASTS TOYOTA'

 

May be an image of 5 people and text that says 'TOYOTA GR86 FANBASE mgflip. imgflip.com com TOYOTA NOT SUPPORTING ENTHUSIASTS'

 

May be an anime-style image of text that says 'TOYOTA 果 DECLINES WARRANTY DUE TO AUTOCROSS IS THIS HOW YOU BUILD A PERFORMANCE CAR BRAND? imaflip.com'

 

May be an image of text that says 'When-Toyota When Toyota realized they sealed the deal with Subaru Using ALL the RTV imgflip.com'

 

May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'MAZDA WATCHING TOYOTA GENERATE MIATA SALES imgflip com'

 

May be a meme of text that says 'TOYOTA: LETS BUILD AN ENTHUSIAST SPORTS CAR PUT A SUBARU ENGINE INSIDE IT APPLY TOO MUCH RTV FROM THE FACTORYTO CLOG PICKUP SCREENS DECLINE WARRANTY WHEN ENGINE FAILS AT TOYOTA-PAID TRACK DAY imgtlip cOm'

 

May be an image of text that says 'TOYOTA GR86 YES YES, LET THE RTV FLOW THROUGH YOU'

 

May be an image of 3 people and text that says 'TO-BE GR86 OWNER WITH DEPOSIT DOWN MA EXCESS RTV IN OIL PAN TOYOTA VOIDING WARRANTY TOYOTA PROVIDED PROW TRACK DAY mofp.com'

 

There are a few spicier ones out there I won't post here.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
8/3/22 11:49 p.m.

In reply to engiekev :

I think that is 100% status quo for Porsche. Their handling of the IMS, d-chunk, and bore scoring issues with the m96/97 was pretty bad. Reading all of the BS denials really turned me off the brand...regardless of how cool they look!

 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/4/22 9:55 a.m.

Quick update: I talked to Blake yesterday around 5:30, and a lot had happened in the previous 24 hours since the story broke.

Long story short, the issue reached Toyota corporate, and they have expressed to him that they are going to take care of him under warranty. Aside from that, there's really not much I can say because the rest of the situation is now under investigation to determine what information that got out to the public was true, what was hyperbole, what was outright false, and who might have been responsible for the mishandling of this claim, or whether the claim was handled properly but the policy was bad, or a million other permutations of situations to determine how it went from a guy buying a brand-new car that should theoretically be able to handle such use to a guy with a broken car and an internet firestorm.

Another matter at hand is the matter of the assembly of the engines in question, and whether there is indeed a production problem with them leading to this failure. There is anecdotal evidence in the public sphere at the moment showing that this RTV situation might not be an isolated incident. Anecdotes are not data, but anecdotes are worthy of further exploration to determine whether data is present, and it is our understanding that that is the point Toyota is currently at. We're pursuing that line of investigation and we'll keep you updated when we know stuff.

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 10:06 a.m.

Thank you for continuing to stamp out the raging  fires of asshat-ism.

 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 10:10 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 10:21 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:
JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

Agreed, like I said on the Facebook page. It's a cop out. Just like Nissan including launch control on the GTR and then denying drivetrain coverage if you actually used a feature they included. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 10:24 a.m.

Also thanks JG, perfect example of why I've subscribed to this mag for almost 20 years. 

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 10:34 a.m.

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Peabody
Peabody MegaDork
8/4/22 11:11 a.m.

I read a few of the articles online and didn't think either of them were irresponsible in any way. Neither blamed anybody, and only reported on what the situation was. Guy blows up fairly new sports car during autocross, warranty claim is denied based on a picture, and and there seems to be other instances of similar engine problems. Were they quick to report something without all the facts? Maybe, but I don't think they claimed to know all the facts, either.

From the original FB post:

I inspected the motor and took photos of the oil pickup and the excess sealant which I showed to the Service Manager and Toyota Corporate. I explained to Toyota Corporate that according to the Service Manager, the FTS had still not been to the dealership to physically inspect the motor even after the sealant issue was raised. The case manager with Toyota Corporate stated she had taken it as high as the Regional Manager for Gulf States Toyota and everyone involved is standing by the FTS and Dealers decision.

I spoke with the Service Manager at the Dealer and requested further escalation or consideration for a goodwill claim. He did not entertain this nor any other compromise on the repair (50/50, parts only, labor only, etc.) and stated that he valued the dealerships reputation with Toyota and did not want to compromise that by approving something the FTS and Toyota Corporate had already determined was not warrantable.

In this instance, I think the media did their job, and the FB post served a customer well who appeared to be getting the shaft by not only the dealer , but Toyota corporate as well. If FB was the only tool I had left I would have used it in the same way.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 11:54 a.m.
Slippery said:

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Press cars are a totally different beast. 

Fun story about that - I was at a shoot for NBC's "Proving Grounds". They had a BMW something, something I would have called an M3 10 years ago but is now something like an 235i M Sport Handling Package or some other finely specified model. They also had a Hyundai N Veloster. The shoot was at Chuckwalla which is in the middle of nowhere. 

They burned the rear tires off the BMW, because of course that's what you do with a powerful RWD press car at a track. Called BMW for some more, they said "Nothing in LA. If you drive to the dealer in Vegas they might have some, good luck". The team ended up swapping in a set of front tires from a Mustang also at the test to the BMW. Wrong spec and skinnier, but that's what they had to do in order to finish their test which included a timed lap.

Meanwhile, Hyundai had provided at least two spare sets of wheels and tires for their car because they know what happens when you send a Veloster N to a racetrack with a bunch of journalists and TV cameras. I had a spare set of rubber in the truck for the car I'd brought as well.

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 12:42 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Slippery said:

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Press cars are a totally different beast. 

Fun story about that - I was at a shoot for NBC's "Proving Grounds". They had a BMW something, something I would have called an M3 10 years ago but is now something like an 235i M Sport Handling Package or some other finely specified model. They also had a Hyundai N Veloster. The shoot was at Chuckwalla which is in the middle of nowhere. 

They burned the rear tires off the BMW, because of course that's what you do with a powerful RWD press car at a track. Called BMW for some more, they said "Nothing in LA. If you drive to the dealer in Vegas they might have some, good luck". The team ended up swapping in a set of front tires from a Mustang also at the test to the BMW. Wrong spec and skinnier, but that's what they had to do in order to finish their test which included a timed lap.

Meanwhile, Hyundai had provided at least two spare sets of wheels and tires for their car because they know what happens when you send a Veloster N to a racetrack with a bunch of journalists and TV cameras. I had a spare set of rubber in the truck for the car I'd brought as well.

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

But their Si was a long-term vehicle though, wasn't it? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:14 p.m.

Yes, my story was just Old Man Ramblings. I'll bet a press car doesn't have to worry about little things like "warranty" when it comes to use. 

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/4/22 1:23 p.m.

There's so much to know to stay reasonable, but two things do stand out to me.

  1. We'll never know now whether Toyota corporate would have made this go well without the Internet pitchfork brigade.
  2. The labyrinthine corporate structures that make finding someone who might probably be the party who can/should actually address your problem don't seem accidental.

Gulf States Toyota didn't say "we don't want to do it, but we're really not the last word." They said "no."

To the best of my understanding of course, noting that I don't have access to the communications.

How well does it work out for Toyota (or insert other mfr; this feels awfully parallel to a less-catastrophic Camaro saga on the forum a while back) that some significant number of people go to The Dealer for warranty work, the dealer denies the claim, and they don't know that there's actually a hydra's heads worth of contact points which might result in a better outcome if you can find them? And that the big, shiny building with the brand name in giant letters isn't actually an official representative of the manufacturer, though it seems clear they're happy to leave people with the notion that they are rather than pointing out the escalatory recourse?

LifeIsStout
LifeIsStout GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/4/22 1:26 p.m.

Looks like the story about the fix is getting out there to a larger audience.

 

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-will-fix-that-viral-gr86-but-the-bigger-warrant-1849365388

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:30 p.m.
dannyp84 said:
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

What's the story with the ND1? As much as I like the 86/BRZ, I think the Subaru engine was a bit of a mistake. I wish they had updated the 3SGE to meet emission standards, or even just put a higher compression head on the 2.0 they use in the Corolla. My girlfriend's Mazda3 has a more joyful engine than the flat 4 in the 1st gen BRZ. I'm less sympathetic to the cost-sharing between two brands for a low volume sports car considering how good the ND2 Miata is, and how little it shares with the rest of Mazda's lineup. With that said, I'm glad these cars exist at all, but if I was looking to buy one I'd probably pad my budget for engine problems.

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:38 p.m.
Keith Tanner 

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

"Hey, got me Bill in chassis development, looks like we have an understeer problem"

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:41 p.m.
Jesse Ransom said:

There's so much to know to stay reasonable, but two things do stand out to me.

  1. We'll never know now whether Toyota corporate would have made this go well without the Internet pitchfork brigade.
  2. The labyrinthine corporate structures that make finding someone who might probably be the party who can/should actually address your problem don't seem accidental.

Gulf States Toyota didn't say "we don't want to do it, but we're really not the last word." They said "no."

To the best of my understanding of course, noting that I don't have access to the communications.

How well does it work out for Toyota (or insert other mfr; this feels awfully parallel to a less-catastrophic Camaro saga on the forum a while back) that some significant number of people go to The Dealer for warranty work, the dealer denies the claim, and they don't know that there's actually a hydra's heads worth of contact points which might result in a better outcome if you can find them? And that the big, shiny building with the brand name in giant letters isn't actually an official representative of the manufacturer, though it seems clear they're happy to leave people with the notion that they are rather than pointing out the escalatory recourse?

I have had some pointed conversations with my Dodge dealer about how, by preventing me from buying directly from Dodge, they are taking on the responsibility of dealing with me AND my problems. I was told not to upset the service writers any more by continuing to demand the year-old safety recall be performed.

gcmak
gcmak New Reader
8/4/22 1:47 p.m.

Appreciate the ongoing updates and follow-ups on this case and hopefully others too. A policy alignment from Toyota/GR for their cars globally might be helpful (or not depending on what policies they go forward with). This has woken one giant and may have woken others too.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 1:53 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
dannyp84 said:
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

What's the story with the ND1? As much as I like the 86/BRZ, I think the Subaru engine was a bit of a mistake. I wish they had updated the 3SGE to meet emission standards, or even just put a higher compression head on the 2.0 they use in the Corolla. My girlfriend's Mazda3 has a more joyful engine than the flat 4 in the 1st gen BRZ. I'm less sympathetic to the cost-sharing between two brands for a low volume sports car considering how good the ND2 Miata is, and how little it shares with the rest of Mazda's lineup. With that said, I'm glad these cars exist at all, but if I was looking to buy one I'd probably pad my budget for engine problems.

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

 

A K20 fits just fine on the first gen ... ask captainawesome laugh and I doubt it runs the lean angle the 3S does.

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:56 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I have had some pointed conversations with my Dodge dealer about how, by preventing me from buying directly from Dodge, they are taking on the responsibility of dealing with me AND my problems. I was told not to upset the service writers any more by continuing to demand the year-old safety recall be performed.

Heh, if they would spend a portion of the money the dealer groups spend on lobbying on their customer service, they probably wouldn't have to spend that much on lobbying in the first place.

As someone who works in a customer facing role and has to have the occasional unpleasant discussion with a client, "think of the service writer" seems to be an odd policy to adopt on what at least some of us would consider a reasonable complaint.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 2:12 p.m.

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 2:17 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

Those of us paying insurance on these things would take that to mean that the insurance might go into the 5 digits...

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/4/22 2:21 p.m.
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

engineered
engineered New Reader
8/4/22 2:22 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

A power bulge in the hood should help with that.

engineered
engineered New Reader
8/4/22 2:23 p.m.
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

The Yaris GR 3cyl turbo would be an awesome engine in the GT68.

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
8/4/22 2:45 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I always imagined the engine leaned over like BMW has always done with their inline engines, it might even help with weight distribution too..

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 2:59 p.m.
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:00 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

You are looking for excuses now. cheeky

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 3:02 p.m.
Slippery said:
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

....about 80k miles before the chain jumps smiley

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:20 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Slippery said:
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

....about 80k miles before the chain jumps smiley

I am pretty sure that is more than triple the life of any Subaru engine, lol. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/4/22 3:22 p.m.

Really, a K20 with cams will do >215 rwd whp with a pretty flat >175tq? I don't know much about those engines but that sounds like a lot for a basically stock 2 liter, especially the torque curve.

And the FA24 engines seem to be fine as long as you unclog the RTV. Heck, even with the pickup clogged they're still taking 5-10k miles of abuse to explode.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:34 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

You win. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 3:49 p.m.
dps214 said:

Really, a K20 with cams will do >215 rwd whp with a pretty flat >175tq? I don't know much about those engines but that sounds like a lot for a basically stock 2 liter, especially the torque curve.

And the FA24 engines seem to be fine as long as you unclog the RTV. Heck, even with the pickup clogged they're still taking 5-10k miles of abuse to explode.

The FA24's are putting down 210-220whp stock, they are very underrated from the factory at 228 crank. If they respond to a catless header and E85 the same as the first gens, you're talking about a legitimate 240-250whp engine with no torque dip. 

Of course, both of those would cause a power train claim to be denied. But if the RTV issue is cleared up for the '23 MY........not much to worry about. 

THIS IS PURE SPECULATION BEYOND THIS POINT: There has been some suggestions by guys who received their '22 allocations late is because of a 1-month "quality control hold" back in February and the RTV issue may have been why. There are plenty of pictures of guys showing an overabundance of RTV on the massive timing chain cover as well. 

But I haven't been able to figure out exactly what the hold was for. 

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
8/4/22 7:49 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

 

This.  Deny it because of abuse, not because it was used.  

I have zero issue with denying coverage due to money shift, high G loading from Hoosiers and aero, 20 minutes straight on the rev limiter doing a slideshow, etc... But not cool to deny JUST because it's been on track or similar.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/5/22 5:04 p.m.

Verus Engineering just posted a video of their 2022 GR86 with under 2k miles........you guessed it, RTV in the oil pump screen. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 5:59 p.m.
wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/5/22 6:10 p.m.

I have a question about this...

 

Where does the motorsport play a part in this failure?

 

I'm assuming that the high g forces and sudden change of direction shouldn't make the rtv come loose anymore than normal use at 20k.  Why would the rtv come loose just because of cornering or braking forces?

 

In other words...  what's going on that "motorsport activities" is showing this failure any more than just driving around?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 8:06 p.m.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Higher engine speeds cause oil pressure loss and damage.

 

More pragmatically, it is a convenient scapegoat.

 

I know not about management level, but on the technician level, a lot of dealer parts-hangers refuse to work on "fake Toyotas" like 86, iAs, and Supras.  It is different and therefore bad.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 8:11 p.m.

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

No Time
No Time SuperDork
8/5/22 9:05 p.m.

Another reason motorsports may exacerbate the issue is the higher G's. 

The sloshing around on corners and during braking and acceleration could move the oil and RTV bits around more in the pan and get more of the RTV into suspension in the oil. That can increase the opportunity for RTV to get caught up in the pickup 

racerfink
racerfink UberDork
8/5/22 9:48 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

I have a question about this...

 

Where does the motorsport play a part in this failure?

 

I'm assuming that the high g forces and sudden change of direction shouldn't make the rtv come loose anymore than normal use at 20k.  Why would the rtv come loose just because of cornering or braking forces?

 

In other words...  what's going on that "motorsport activities" is showing this failure any more than just driving around?

I could see how higher temps associated with high performance driving might make the RTV (especially if it's not properly cured, or improperly manufactured) more prone to failure.  Any excess could "break off" easier.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 2:55 a.m.
CyberEric said:

te72, that was my exact response. It's a Subaru engine, pretty much what I'd suspect.

Had my hands in wayyyy too many of them over the years, for a guy who has never owned one. Shame, they're fun to drive, but I suppose hand grenades are fun to throw, soooo... either one goes boom and all you hear is metal clanking.

 

Heh, "What do a Subaru engine and a hand grenade have in common? They both go boom and all you hear is metal clanking, and a bit of crying." =P

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 2:57 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thank you for the clarification on the ND transmission fixes and longevity solutions. I'm having a lot of fun with the Exocet, but if something were to ever cause need of replacement for the NB, an ND is definitely toward the top of the list.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 3:09 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/6/22 9:52 a.m.
te72 said:
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

If you watch the video Gameboy linked earlier on this page, it will give you a decent idea. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/6/22 10:57 a.m.

To me the fact that they're all making it to 4k+ miles suggests there's other factors required to blow it up. Running too long on the crappy stock oil, letting the level get a bit low and then running it hard, etc. The kinds of things that are somewhat reasonable to do and on their own wouldn't cause any issues, but when combined with a flow restriction, over time lead to a boom.  One guy I saw was doing track days on stock oil with no cooler and just keeping the level "between the marks"...yeah that's a recipe for problems even without any external factors.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/6/22 11:07 a.m.

I'm going to venture a guess that the dealership networks would rather keep slinging Sequoias and Camrys at a rate of 20:1 (with higher margins,) than deal with sports car enthusiasts.

There is a culture divide between the parent companies and distribution networks.  Always has been, except for maybe Mazda, who is the only bread and butter manufacturer that seems to embrace motorsports as part of their heritage.

I experienced this with the airbag recall on my Tundra.  The local dealer -does not- want to f with it, yet Toyota corporate is pursuing me relentlessly.  After getting stonewalled repeatedly, I talked to Toyota Corporate and told them that they can set up the appointment on my behalf. When I showed up, they told me it was going to take them at least 8 hours, despite having a one hour appointment.  

Traditional dealership networks SUCK.  There are few good dealers, but those are independent businesses, for better or worse.

I really like the GR86, but here we go again with Subaru engines doing their thing.  

I'd like to get a newer fun car that can do what my old E36 M3 can do one of these days.  155k miles and it would laugh at the thought of an HPDE or an Autox causing engine damage.  But it is also vintage-y and I would like to preserve it for that purpose as it continues to age.

I had little doubt that Toyota would warranty this and that the dealer wouldn't want to do it unless forced.  They're short-staffed and a warranty engine replacement consumes a bay that could have been used for 100 Camry oil changes and safety inspections.

The next reality to face is what the supply chain looks like?  And those engines will likely have the same root cause failure propensity.

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 11:53 a.m.

In reply to dps214 :

If there is RTV in the pickups, blaming the victim is the wrong way to approch the problem. It may take 4k of driving to clog the pickup to the point where it becomes too clogged. 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 12:03 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

It would be interesting to see the manual about the oil change. We've been listing normal use 10k intervals for some time now, including the original oil. Production engines haven't used "break in" oil for about 30 years now, once it was figured out how to break them in during manufacturing. 
 

And to further on Keith's point, blaming the owner to participate in events that someone in the corporation advertises as something capable, not something I see as applicable. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/6/22 12:10 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm not really blaming the owners. Like I said it's nothing that wouldn't be fine on a car that doesn't have the oil pickup clogged with rtv. We'll see if daily driver cars start blowing engines, but at least to my knowledge it's only been "hard use" cars that have failed so far so clearly there's some other factors involved. But that said 0w20 oil has no real place in a track car especially without a nice oil cooler. Neither does running it anything less than full, especially in an engine layout with a history of oiling issues.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 12:17 p.m.
z31maniac said:
te72 said:
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

If you watch the video Gameboy linked earlier on this page, it will give you a decent idea. 

That seems like a tiny screen inside that pickup tube, if I'm understanding what I am seeing correctly. On a JZ, the pickup tube has a large screen that is submerged in the oil at all times. I can see why the small tube would make sense, in theory it should help prevent the pickup from being uncovered in high-G maneuvers, but in practice... well, we see what can go wrong.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 12:43 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

If there's enough flow to keep the engine lubricated at lower engine speeds, we may not see the commuter cars fail. I doubt this is a cumulative wear problem, more of a catastrophic one when oil demand exceeds the ability of the pickup to deliver. 

Which means that part of setting up a used '86 for track use in the future will always involve pulling the pan to check for obstructions. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 1:23 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I know not about management level, but on the technician level, a lot of dealer parts-hangers refuse to work on "fake Toyotas" like 86, iAs, and Supras.  It is different and therefore bad.

I kinda understand.  The Subaru thing is probably not totally justified, but if I worked in a Toyota store, and somebody wanted me to work on their 335i, I would ask whether they wouldn't rather have somebody trained in German car repair...

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 1:26 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

The part that amuses me is that I have a friend who works at a Toyota dealership who bought a 335i as a used car tradein... and he loves working on the "fake Toyotas" because none of the other people will touch them, so it is like guaranteed money.

 

My opinion is it's all just cars, if you can't work on brand X given a modicum of information, you can't work on anything.  But then I have also met a lot of mouth-breather types from dealerships, who are brand cheerleaders who feel obligated to snark about cars other than Their Team.

I have so much FUN with those types smiley  I had a fun conversation just last week about how Chevy has never made a car with good handling.  Corvettes are trucks with fat tires so their limits are so high you cannot find out how bad their habits are, you see...

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 2:32 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Making fun of guys plastic pickup truck is the worst kind of bullying.  You should feel so awful...devil

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 2:45 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Oh no, he does not actually own a corvette, he has three trucks: a Silverado, a generic SUV, and a new Harley.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/6/22 7:24 p.m.
Tyler H said:

I'm going to venture a guess that the dealership networks would rather keep slinging Sequoias and Camrys at a rate of 20:1 (with higher margins,) than deal with sports car enthusiasts.

There is a culture divide between the parent companies and distribution networks.  Always has been, except for maybe Mazda, who is the only bread and butter manufacturer that seems to embrace motorsports as part of their heritage.

I experienced this with the airbag recall on my Tundra.  The local dealer -does not- want to f with it, yet Toyota corporate is pursuing me relentlessly.  After getting stonewalled repeatedly, I talked to Toyota Corporate and told them that they can set up the appointment on my behalf. When I showed up, they told me it was going to take them at least 8 hours, despite having a one hour appointment.  

Traditional dealership networks SUCK.  There are few good dealers, but those are independent businesses, for better or worse.

I really like the GR86, but here we go again with Subaru engines doing their thing.  

I'd like to get a newer fun car that can do what my old E36 M3 can do one of these days.  155k miles and it would laugh at the thought of an HPDE or an Autox causing engine damage.  But it is also vintage-y and I would like to preserve it for that purpose as it continues to age.

I had little doubt that Toyota would warranty this and that the dealer wouldn't want to do it unless forced.  They're short-staffed and a warranty engine replacement consumes a bay that could have been used for 100 Camry oil changes and safety inspections.

The next reality to face is what the supply chain looks like?  And those engines will likely have the same root cause failure propensity.

 

 

That sounds like a crappy dealership vs the entire company. 

I had to take my used 135i in just a couple months after buying it, used, and the BMW dealership made it super easy. The car new or used wasn't even purchased in this state, the dealer sent me off in an $80k X5 as loaner for 24 hours while they did the airbag swap.

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/6/22 7:46 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

The service experience difference between my local(ish) BMW dealers and the Toyota dealer where I bought my Supra is huge. 

The BMW dealers (the one 2 hours away was the only one that could work on my i8) would send a driver with a loaner to pick my car up for service, then do the same on return. The closer one is still the better part of an hour away and will do the same. 
 

It appears the local Toyota dealer won't send their shuttle to pick me up 25 minutes away-- their stated preference is 3-5 miles tops. The salesman did go the extra mile to pick up the i8 when it was traded in on the Supra, so ups to him on that. 
 

Maybe they really want you to buy a Lexus for the service experience. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 8:16 p.m.

Dealers used to search out warranty work.  It was guaranteed payment, all good.  Now, the manufacturers are offloading a bunch of their warranty costs onto the dealers.

Quick example, a Ford Escape throttle body has an extended warranty.  The throttle, which should probably retail for $4-500, is less than $50, because Ford only has to pay a percentage up from cost.  Dealer doesn't make as much money.  I have no specific examples, but the industry is full of dealer techs who repair, for example, Chev 4 cylinder timing chains and piston sets, and if they get really lucky and do that job several times a week, they might get within 20% of the flat rate time.  Dealer and tech both make less money than they should.

Not all the dealers fault.

johndej
johndej SuperDork
8/7/22 8:24 a.m.

In reply to dps214 :

I don't think its just motorsports participants blowing motors, they are just the ones who have had the warranty denied. 

car39
car39 Dork
8/7/22 8:07 p.m.

Please don't think the manufacturer attitude is a recent development.  I have a few scars from dealing with a stone wall attitude from a rep concerning a customer vehicle.  We had a C70 convertible that would shut off when driving.  My tech narrowed it to a $900 control unit, that the rep refused to authorize.  The car ended up as a lemon, I got paid 40 hours diagnostic time on warranty, and the field tech rep that spend an entire day found the issue.  The $900 control unit I couldn't install.  The cherry on the sh@t cake was that a factory employee bought the car for 40 cents on the dollar (it's a lemon, don't forget) and then tried to extort accessories from me.  Can't make this stuff up.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UberDork
8/7/22 8:47 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

When I worked as a Toyota mechanic something like 40 years ago the dealership and the tech got something like 80% of what the job normally paid.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
8/8/22 10:56 a.m.

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/8/22 12:31 p.m.
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 1:28 p.m.
z31maniac said:
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Yah... the majority of Subarus have no major issues, which is why you see people trade their old Subarus for new ones instead of changing brands.

My Subaru lived long enough to rust itself to death.  Likewise the rusted and wrecked WRX that I bought last year had a good engine at 203k miles, despite obvious signs of neglect like a corded spare tire, numerous hoses underhood broken (boost control? nah we don't need that)...

People don't complain that the engine outlasted the car they just rammed into a phone pole, though.

 

Now, if one were to say "never buy anything with a timing chain", THAT is something I can get behind.  Timing chains are noisy, bulky, far more difficult to service, and less reliable.  You don't have to worry about a timing belt jumping a tooth because the oil pickup sucked air, you don't have to worry about the water pump leaking into the oil with a timing belt.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 1:32 p.m.

My mom had a 1.6L bugeye Impreza she bought new in the early 2000s, she sold it a year or two ago with the engine never needing anything but ordinary routine maintenance, most of the problems with it were the brake hydraulics and ABS system.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 1:35 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Every now and then I hunt the JDM importers for EJ16 or EJ15 engines.  So far, nada.

 

An EJ15 with a stroker crank should be awesome for combustion chamber dimension reasons under high boost.

lnlds
lnlds Reader
8/8/22 1:37 p.m.

Another video of a hobbyist/Motorsports enthusiast pulling the pan on the new gr86

 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/8/22 1:43 p.m.

From that video ^ Yuck. I have a feeling this will be a TSB or recall. Look at how much was squished on the inside of the pan.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 1:55 p.m.

^One mistake in the video above is that he says the older FA20s have the same oil pickup - they don't, they have a more traditional pickup seen at the top here (vs. an aftermarket high-flow pickup below):

The older models with the FA20 also don't have any record of excess RTV issues except as a result of having the engine opened back up by the dealers for recall work.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 2:51 p.m.

There are really two issues here.

1. RTV in the oil pickup screens. How widespread is it? How much is too much?

2. Warranty claims denied because of ______ use. It's come to light because of 1 and is becoming important due to 1.

tremm
tremm Reader
8/8/22 3:01 p.m.

Is it possible to do any diagnostics by cutting open your used oil filters?

TBH I don't know what the largest particulate size is that could make it to a filter.

I guess they could get pureed by the pump? Maybe you could catch something by straining the used oil through a mesh bag.

I'm mostly wondering what guys who just bought a >$35,000 car would be thinking. I think step 1 is: 'Is my engine one of the ones with excess silicone?' And I'm trying to think of the easiest way you'd confirm/deny. I think used oil analysis tests for silicone; but I'd wager not in a way which is useful for assessing whether your pickup screen is partially blocked.

I'm guessing that if you have silicone all the way to your filter, you're berked. Blocking the pickup screen seems like the most attractive of the failures - at least it is 'easy' to reverse. Only the magic 8 Ball knows if you have (partially) blocked galleries. Spin the wheel in XX,XXX miles to find out!

(at least dropping the pan looks moderately straightforward- remove lower engine cover splash shield, drop the exhaust front section / new gaskets. Pry off the pan with gorilla strength, bending it in the process. Hope you do a better job interpreting the silicone application instructions than the factory did) 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/8/22 3:05 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
z31maniac said:
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Yah... the majority of Subarus have no major issues, which is why you see people trade their old Subarus for new ones instead of changing brands.

My Subaru lived long enough to rust itself to death.  Likewise the rusted and wrecked WRX that I bought last year had a good engine at 203k miles, despite obvious signs of neglect like a corded spare tire, numerous hoses underhood broken (boost control? nah we don't need that)...

People don't complain that the engine outlasted the car they just rammed into a phone pole, though.

 

Now, if one were to say "never buy anything with a timing chain", THAT is something I can get behind.  Timing chains are noisy, bulky, far more difficult to service, and less reliable.  You don't have to worry about a timing belt jumping a tooth because the oil pickup sucked air, you don't have to worry about the water pump leaking into the oil with a timing belt.

So there's the old head gasket thing, which was a big deal. but if we're being honest, pretty much every manufacturer has had at least one of those type of things so that's not exactly uique to subaru.

My conclusion, having now been involved in the ownership of two old and one new subaru, is that they're generally fine ***as long as they're well maintained and left vaguely stock***. They're no 90s toyota that can go a million miles on like five oil changes and zero other maintenance. But if you keep decent oil in them and don't weld the wastegate shut, chances are the engine/drivetrain won't be the thing that ultimately does the car in. Unfortunately, at least in the performance car segment, they seem to attract the type of people who generally aren't capable of doing either of those things. And to their credit, having driven a first gen wrx, I totally understand why nobody can/could manage to leave them stock.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 3:06 p.m.

In reply to tremm :

If the schmutz was making it through the pump, there would be no issue.

 

I wonder if the car has networked gauge info that can take minutes before a warning light comes on, like my Volvo...

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/8/22 3:07 p.m.
tremm said:

Is it possible to do any diagnostics by cutting open your used oil filters?

TBH I don't know what the largest particulate size is that could make it to a filter.

I guess they could get pureed by the pump? Maybe you could catch something by straining the used oil through a mesh bag.

I'm mostly wondering what guys who just bought a >$35,000 car would be thinking. I think step 1 is: 'Is my engine one of the ones with excess silicone?' And I'm trying to think of the easiest way you'd confirm/deny. I think used oil analysis tests for silicone; but I'd wager not in a way which is useful for assessing whether your pickup screen is partially blocked.

I'm guessing that if you have silicone all the way to your filter, you're berked. Blocking the pickup screen seems like the most attractive of the failures - at least it is 'easy' to reverse. Only the magic 8 Ball knows if you have (partially) blocked galleries. Spin the wheel in XX,XXX miles to find out!

As a guy who ordered one, and is expecting it in the next few weeks. 

I'm not worried. It has a warranty, and all the national media attention has ensured Subaru is paying attention. I'm still planning on doing what I planned, I have the suspension and duckbill spoiler here. I'm ordering wheels and a catback this week, and once OEM Audio finalizes their 2022+ package I'll get that as well. 

A sub 1% issue doesn't bother me. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/8/22 3:10 p.m.
tremm said:

Is it possible to do any diagnostics by cutting open your used oil filters?

TBH I don't know what the largest particulate size is that could make it to a filter.

I guess they could get pureed by the pump? Maybe you could catch something by straining the used oil through a mesh bag.

I'm mostly wondering what guys who just bought a >$35,000 car would be thinking. I think step 1 is: 'Is my engine one of the ones with excess silicone?' And I'm trying to think of the easiest way you'd confirm/deny. I think used oil analysis tests for silicone; but I'd wager not in a way which is useful for assessing whether your pickup screen is partially blocked.

I'm guessing that if you have silicone all the way to your filter, you're berked. Blocking the pickup screen seems like the most attractive of the failures - at least it is 'easy' to reverse. Only the magic 8 Ball knows if you have (partially) blocked galleries. Spin the wheel in XX,XXX miles to find out!

We cut open the first filter and there was definitely some silicone confetti in there (three different colors of it, no less). People have also started sharing photos of tiny particles on the dipstick. No idea how that correlates to the status of anything else in the engine though. I think it's pretty safe to assume that all of them have some amount of stuff in the pickup, but so far that alone hasn't been proven to be a death sentence.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/8/22 3:16 p.m.

I guess the big question is how long are these things going to shed RTV before they settle in?  Time for the aftermarket to sweep in with a big ass oil pickup that will tolerate RTV accumulation?  Somebody get on it!  ;)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 3:58 p.m.

In reply to Tyler H :

Describe the installation procedure of that big ass oil pickup :)

No Time
No Time SuperDork
8/8/22 5:52 p.m.

Can a borescope be inserted through the drain to inspect the pan and pickup?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/8/22 5:55 p.m.

There should be only one color, the light gray stuff that everyone uses.  (Generically call it Hondabond)  You can razor big 1/2" wide fringes of it off of the inside of GM 3.6 timing covers, wide bits from Honda oil pans, etc.

 

The question I have is not "why so much" but "why is it coming loose", and now a new question "what is really coming apart?"  Multiple colors mean something is coming apart besides form in place gasket material.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/8/22 6:27 p.m.
No Time said:

Can a borescope be inserted through the drain to inspect the pan and pickup?

Nope. 

tremm
tremm Reader
8/8/22 8:24 p.m.

That sucks. It seems like you have to be able to inspect the pickup in-situ, in order to have confidence. (Since apparently the problems return if you don't follow the repair procedure correctly)- that video posted sure looks like a lot of silicone was used at 5:45. Maybe I'd have a new bung installed in the pan, directly beneath the pickup tube, so I could stick a borescope in there (assuming the new drain plug wouldn't interfere with the pickup). Seems like cheap peace of mind.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/8/22 11:07 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

The question I have is not "why so much" but "why is it coming loose", and now a new question "what is really coming apart?"  Multiple colors mean something is coming apart besides form in place gasket material.

All good things in moderation, yes, but... you raise an interesting point. Hondabond should be able to cope with oil exposure just fine. Windage, perhaps? Rotating assembly bits REALLY close to the edges of the pan? Gremlins in the oil, wreaking havoc?

 

As for a solution, is it possible to install a screen around the pickup? The oil lines on my dry sump setup have screens in each line, before anything gets into the pump. I check them each time I change the oil, just in case. Total area is quite large, so I'm not worried about contaminants, but it would be an extreme solution for most situations. I'm thinking how fuel tanks and oil pans have trap door baffles, but with screens, so you would have a secondary opportunity to catch contaminants before they have the chance to clog the primary oil inlet screen.

wae
wae PowerDork
8/9/22 9:51 a.m.

A while back when my Excursion gave me some intermittent low oil pressure, my problem was also a clogged pickup screen.  I didn't save the "stuff" but it looked very similar to what's in the pictures of the GR86 strainer.  As far as I'm aware it hadn't been opened up before and I don't recall it having a ton of RTV in use anywhere.  Is it possible that something else could look like strands of RTV but is actually something else?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 10:05 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

A screen to protect the existing pickup screen? Sounds like addressing the symptom, not the cause. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/9/22 10:12 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to te72 :

A screen to protect the existing pickup screen? Sounds like addressing the symptom, not the cause. 

Sounds like just moving the problem upstream a bit. I guess if you gave the screen more surface area at the same time, it would be an improvement.

 

We're not exactly sure what we're going to do. We'd like to at least clean out the pickup once autocross season is over. But from what we've seen, just pulling the lower pan and trying to scrape out the stuff from the tube doesn't seem like a good solution. We really don't want to disassemble the engine to properly clean it (or pay someone else to do it) though. I think at the moment we've landed on taking it to a dealer to have them inspect it, then if (when) they find stuff, hope to talk them into warranty covering the full clean out. That's probably a bit optimistic though.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 10:42 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to te72 :

A screen to protect the existing pickup screen? Sounds like addressing the symptom, not the cause. 

Yo dawg...

Matt B (fs)
Matt B (fs) UltraDork
8/9/22 10:46 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I needed that chuckle this morning. Hats off sir.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/9/22 11:58 a.m.
dps214 said:
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to te72 :

A screen to protect the existing pickup screen? Sounds like addressing the symptom, not the cause. 

Sounds like just moving the problem upstream a bit. I guess if you gave the screen more surface area at the same time, it would be an improvement.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no engineer, but this is where my mind was at. It may not be the best solution, but I haven't heard a whole lot of other solutions brought up yet, either. Having a tiny screen at the end of a tube has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen from an oil delivery standpoint. Then again, Subaru is well known for oil control issues in performance applications.

 

Might as well start with the knock knock jokes on this engine too...

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 12:10 p.m.

In reply to te72 :

The solution is to prevent it. And then have a recall to repair the old ones. 

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/9/22 12:10 p.m.

Would there be a trade between increasing the screen size and the pickup unporting?

Just convert to a dry sump system and solve all the problems!laugh

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 12:11 p.m.
z31maniac said:
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Odd that a thread about a Subaru engine issue has shifted to bash another oem. Focus, people. 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 12:13 p.m.
Karacticus said:

Would there be a trade between increasing the screen size and the pickup unporting?

Just convert to a dry sump system and solve all the problems!laugh

Unless the gasket issue is done at the same time, a dry sump won't fix the problem- it will just shift the problem to a different part of the engine where the debris will block a different passage and cause a failure. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 12:22 p.m.
te72 said:
dps214 said:
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to te72 :

A screen to protect the existing pickup screen? Sounds like addressing the symptom, not the cause. 

Sounds like just moving the problem upstream a bit. I guess if you gave the screen more surface area at the same time, it would be an improvement.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no engineer, but this is where my mind was at. It may not be the best solution, but I haven't heard a whole lot of other solutions brought up yet, either. Having a tiny screen at the end of a tube has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen from an oil delivery standpoint. Then again, Subaru is well known for oil control issues in performance applications.

 

Might as well start with the knock knock jokes on this engine too...

I still haven't seen a nice clear picture of the 2022 GT86 pickup out of the car. Just how small is the screen? Every picture I've seen has a weird artifact like it's being shot through a magnifying glass. Is the screen halfway up the pickup?

Comparative examples:

LS3 (which has more main bearings and rod bearings, so does that mean it has higher oil flow requirements?):

NA/NB Miata

Toyota 22RE

LS1 (correction, SBC):

GM, seriously, what are you doing here?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/9/22 12:41 p.m.

I may be doing chains on a Chevy 3.6 very soon, I will take pics of how much gasketing fronds and crusts there are on engines that don't have issues.

 

Well, not pickup clog issues.

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/9/22 1:47 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

As I understand it, the screen is essentially a concave cup. The RTV sticks to the center but leaves the sides open generally. And yes, for some reason that I'm sure only subaru could manage to explain to us, it's half way up the tube. Which is why trying to pick all the stuff out of it seems like not a great solution. You haven't seen a photo out of the car because fully removing it requres essentially disassembling the engine.

We were brainstorming things like trying to vacuum the stuff out of there, but are concerned that either it'll be stuck on there too well or it'll do something weird like lose prime on the oil pump from applying suction to the pickup tube.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/10/22 10:07 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm a bit baffled (no pun intended) by the size of some of those pickups, particularly the LS3. I wonder if it isn't for some sort of efficiency reason, to have such a small screen?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/22 11:08 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

It is actually fairly large of a screen, but it is shrouded to minimize the likelihood of picking up air.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/22 11:15 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I can see that working in the LS3 version but not the LS1, unless they assume there's one direction of slosh that's not a concern. Or because the LS3 was designed with the lessons learned by the LS1 :)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/22 11:29 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That "LS1" pickup is a small block Chevy pickup.  Presses into the oil pump bolted to the rear main cap.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/22 11:31 a.m.

Ah, I didn't think it looked familiar but I thought maybe it was a different application than the Camero ones I'd handled.

 

JahjahSQC
JahjahSQC New Reader
9/6/22 4:19 p.m.

In reply to paddygarcia :

Just 2 independently owned distributorships. Gulf States Toyota & Southeast Toyota. Everything else is operated by Toyota Motor Sales.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/6/22 4:25 p.m.
alfadriver said:
z31maniac said:
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Odd that a thread about a Subaru engine issue has shifted to bash another oem. Focus, people. 

It's odd there is a gigantic thread about this. We have 1 confirmed failure for 8100 cars sold, and everyone is losing their mind like your grandma for the Beatles. 

Opti
Opti Dork
9/7/22 11:20 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I pretty much agree with you, but I have also been seeing people pulling off pans on super low mileage cars and finding a bunch of silicone.

So is this a freak failure, or is it just the beginning? So I'm currently sitting on the fence to see what happens

dps214
dps214 Dork
9/7/22 5:55 p.m.
z31maniac said:
alfadriver said:
z31maniac said:
kevinatfms said:

Note to self....never buy a Subaru or Subaru powered anything.

LOL, buy a Ford. The manufacturer with the most recalls in history. 

Odd that a thread about a Subaru engine issue has shifted to bash another oem. Focus, people. 

It's odd there is a gigantic thread about this. We have 1 confirmed failure for 8100 cars sold, and everyone is losing their mind like your grandma for the Beatles. 

I'm not saying it's not overblown, but there's definitely been a lot more than one confirmed failure. Just only one that tried to deny the warranty claim.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/7/22 6:25 p.m.

Isn't the engine also used in Subaru's new SUV?  Where are the plugged pickups in those?

dps214
dps214 Dork
9/7/22 7:19 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Isn't the engine also used in Subaru's new SUV?  Where are the plugged pickups in those?

There's evidence that hard use is needed or at least very much speeds up the process. Give them a few more years or until the owners start running them low on oil and I bet they'll start showing up. Also most people had no idea the issue existed until the warranty denial media storm. For all we know it is happening on the SUVs but nobody outside of the three people on that forum know about it because nobody's had reason to make a big deal of it.

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UberDork
9/7/22 9:02 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Here is a picture of the pickup from a dismantled GR86.  A guy posted it today on the GR86 Facebook group.

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