Do I need a seat time car, or a dose of reality?

I have this awesome M3 that I'm very behind on updating the thread on. Initially I was excited about all of the HPDE and other track events I'd be attending, but over the last 22 months I've owned it, it's spent as much time waiting to be fixed as I've spent autocrossing it. It's all "normal" stuff that you'd expect out of a 23-year-old BMW that's been heavily upgraded and then thrashed for many years before I bought it. Since just last September, here's the TL;DR of what's happened that's not in the build thread yet:

1. September 2020: Mechanical fan contacted the shroud at autocross, shredded some stuff. Decided to go with an electric fan conversion, took several months off and on to sort out. Had to replace a punctured rad and a bunch of other small pieces. 
2. November 2020: New clutch, flywheel, guibo, supporting bits. Broke it in on the street, seems fine on the track.
3. January 2021: Brake master cylinder goes out.
4. March 2021: Notice the rear end making more noise than before.
5. May 2021: Starts sounding like a Subaru after an autocross. Diagnose it as multiple misfires. New coils, plugs, O2 sensors, valve cover gasket while I'm in there. CEL finally goes away, it's running great. 
6. June - July 2021: Starts making weird noises after fixing #5. Ticking noise in gear. Clutch pedal is soft all of a sudden, and inconsistent. Rear end is making a lot of noise.
7. August 2021: Bleed clutch slave cylinder a few times, clutch engagement feels low but is consistent now. Brakes start squealing, pads are close to done. Ticking stopped. Diagnosed original rear subframe bushines, they're definitely done. Need to pull the subframe before it goes to a track, IMO.

None of that is catastrophic on its own of course, but it's had the cumulative effect of me not getting onto VIR's main course (my nearby dream track) forany HPDE events, or feeling confident in the car enough to go flog it on any other smaller racetracks. It mostly gets towed to autocross, gets flogged, doesn't break 70% of the time, and gets towed home. I've started feeling the pangs of "stock cars are reliable" and wondering if it would make sense to get a car that would be definitely less exciting than the M3, but also spend a lot less time on jack stands not being driven while I collect the parts or the motivation to fix it again. I love the car, but I also would sometimes like to just throw snacks and a few tools in a car, go hit an autox, and drive home without worrying about it. Same thing for a track day. 

I think I have two choices, and I'd love the hivemind's input:

1. Suck it up, this is just racecar stuff, keep fixing it. The old stuff will all be replaced eventually. 
2. Buy something boring, useful, and cheap that can be a great track/seat time car when the funds/schedule/motivation to fix the M3 doesn't line up with the event schedule. Just throw on tires, fresh fluids and pads, maybe a couple suspension bits, keep it street class capable.

We do own a 2020 Miata RF, but that's not a track option. I can't fit in it with a helmet. Older Miatas are out, I've had one and I also can't fit in any of them with helmets without a floor pan drop and I'm not really interested in going through all of that just to still barely fit. Also, old cars are old. I want a C5 Z06 in the next year or two, but don't plan to track it heavily. 

Were I to go in this direction, these are the cars that seem to make sense:

• 1st gen Honda Fit
• 8th gen Civic Si
• Stockish E36/E46
• 350Z
• Mazda2

Is this a logical conclusion? Am I being a wimp? 

Sounds about right for an e36. Mine was an unreliable, needy bitch when new too. 
Since Miata is not an option, Maybe buy a FRS BRZ and go have some fun?

For me there is nothing more annoying and unforgiving than an unreliable car.......I'd pull the ejection handle.

Fits are fun but it's a serious downgrade in speed Civic SI is a fun car.

Don't know much about 350Zs; I see them at events and don't recall ever seeing them break down.

I'm thinking a stock or stockish M3 might work for you but I don't know how those are to live with. I'm a Japanese car guy so I prefer those.

NC Miata have enough headroom? The Blackbird Fabworx (soft top) roll bar has better 'broomstick' clearance than any Miata before or since.

What is your daily?  Buy an extra set of wheels for autocross and keep plugging away on the M3 until you feel confident in it.

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

The goal of racing is to extract every last bit from the car. Used that way race cars become extremely maintenance  sensitive .  
If you don't want the work and won't pay someone. Rent a ride.   Nearly every club has someone with an excellent reputation who rents out cars.  Make sure you fit if that is an issue  but chances are you will be happier.  
  Another solution is drivers schools. Show up and not only drive but learn to drive better. 

I'm not going to claim that Minis are a beacon of reliability, but they are pretty cheap to fix, have tons of room (I'm 6'3"), and do pretty damn good around a track...

The last post is my write up from the HPDE at Barber's this weekend:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/2003-mini-cooper-s-r53-street-touring-prepared-build/145066/page6/#post3316259

Do you enjoy driving the BMW?  If yes, then go ahead and fix it till it's reliable.  You're already trailering it to events so a few more failures won't strand you.    But you have to get serious about fixing the old stuff before they fail so badly they take out bigger/more expensive components.

In reply to amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) :

I've definitely thought about a frisbee, I haven't driven one to see if the power "issues" would bother me or whether I'd easily fit. They're a bit higher than what I'd prefer to spend if it's a second car, but if that was my only trackable daily I might like it. The new gen looks like it's going to be incredible!

Tom1200 said:

For me there is nothing more annoying and unforgiving than an unreliable car.......I'd pull the ejection handle.

Fits are fun but it's a serious downgrade in speed Civic SI is a fun car.

Don't know much about 350Zs; I see them at events and don't recall ever seeing them break down.

I'm thinking a stock or stockish M3 might work for you but I don't know how those are to live with. I'm a Japanese car guy so I prefer those.

I always struggle with knowing when it's time to move on from a car. I've owned the M3 for about 2 years and it's a massive amount of fun when it all works correctly. But it does spend a lot of time sitting in the garage not getting driven...

I wouldn't normally consider a Fit either (still don't know if I fit in one) but I see so many people swear by how fun and reliable they are on track. I'm pretty sure I'd love a Civic Si based on everything I've read. 

I'm also a Japanese guy for most of my daily/fun cars (currently have a ND Miata, 99 Rav4, 06 LS 430, just sold a Land Cruiser) but I still have a soft spot for old unreliable German cars.

Driven5 said:

NC Miata have enough headroom? The Blackbird Fabworx (soft top) roll bar has better 'broomstick' clearance than any Miata before or since.

NCs don't either, unless I do a more permanent mod like a much taller roll bar and a drop pan. It's not that I'm unwilling to try something like that, but I'd rather buy a car that needs less modification. I also want to retain seat sliders if possible, since my wife co-drives at autox.

Patientzero said:

What is your daily?  Buy an extra set of wheels for autocross and keep plugging away on the M3 until you feel confident in it.

Dailies are a ND Miata RF and a Lexus LS 430. We've considered grabbing a set of autox wheels and tires for the RF and using that, only downside is I wouldn't be able to track it. No roll bar and with a helmet my head sticks out the top 3-4 inches. I plan on getting a lower seat slider for it, but that'll only get me an inch or so and I don't want to disable the top just to make a rollbar work. 

BradLTL said:

I'm not going to claim that Minis are a beacon of reliability, but they are pretty cheap to fix, have tons of room (I'm 6'3"), and do pretty damn good around a track...

The last post is my write up from the HPDE at Barber's this weekend:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/2003-mini-cooper-s-r53-street-touring-prepared-build/145066/page6/#post3316259

A friend growing up was 6'7" and dailied a Mini. I was always surprised by how much room he had. I don't personally like them that much but I've always thought one would make a fun rallycross project if I found a deal. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

The goal of racing is to extract every last bit from the car. Used that way race cars become extremely maintenance  sensitive .  
If you don't want the work and won't pay someone. Rent a ride.   Nearly every club has someone with an excellent reputation who rents out cars.  Make sure you fit if that is an issue  but chances are you will be happier.  
  Another solution is drivers schools. Show up and not only drive but learn to drive better. 

I'm interested in driving schools, I did the BMW Performance Driving experience with a buddy who was picking up a M340i and had a blast, strongly considering doing the larger version of that. I've never looked into ride rentals, I should look to see what's available local. My gut is that I'd get tired of using someone else's car that I wasn't familiar with, but that could just be me being grumpy.

Totally get what you're saying about the car needing that maintenance to perform. I don't hold it against it at all and it's all more or less stuff I'd expect. My frustration is only that it keeps happening often enough that I'm not getting to my larger goals. Sort of like I want to go fishing in the bay but the boat keeps having issues before it gets out of the canal, so back on the lift it sits. 

KyAllroad said:

Do you enjoy driving the BMW?  If yes, then go ahead and fix it till it's reliable.  You're already trailering it to events so a few more failures won't strand you.    But you have to get serious about fixing the old stuff before they fail so badly they take out bigger/more expensive components.

I enjoy it immensely during autocross. It's nothing that crazy compared to plenty of other competitive rides but it feels like a monster that'll take me several years to wring out the potential from. I enjoy it less on the street because it's loud, stiff, exhaust stinks, and the previous owner was a little more aggressive with weight removal than I'd be (I mean, AC doesn't weigh THAT much). The Miata is a 10x more fun car on the street but I'm ok with that tradeoff. I know I'm fortunate to have multiple fun cars so I don't need the M3 to be incredibly reliable, but I was hoping for it to be more consistently reliable than it has been. Since I bought it I've been averaging a $150-200 car payment worth of maintenance each month, and the economics aren't lost on me. 

AutoX the ND, and use the M3 for track.

Patience is key.  Any 20+ year old car is going to have issues, especially when tracked.  Ongoing maintenance is a reality, even when you have most of the old stuff replaced.  Our track Miata has been out of action for most of this year because of ongoing upgrades (cage earlier in the year, now getting a fire system and turbo), but I know the payoff will be a much improved and safer car next year.  Having tracked street cars in the past, I really prefer a dedicated track car for a lot of reasons, but there's definitely work and expense involved.  You just have to weigh the options, and decide if the juice is worth the squeeze for you.

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

I worked mostly for one guy after a while. He had me do the restoration on the car, get it to the track for him, and then be his crew chief during the weekend.  I charged him $20/ hr (1980-2000) and worked on his car evenings and weekends. I ordered parts, etc. and he paid the costs. ( no markup )  he paid fuel costs and my entry fee at the races we attended instead of hourly rate.  My income from him paid for restoration and parts on my car (s) 

 Now that was wheel to wheel vintage racing. But I'm sure there is more than a few local guys  willing to work like that. 
      Watch at the track and see who shows up with a well prepared car that runs reliably for several events in a row.  Then  find out which one might be interested in working out that sort of deal with you. 
         

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

I owned a fast but fragile sports racer between 1997 & 2003; I loved driving the car but I hated owning it. 

I could see getting some cheap wheels for the Miata while you sort the M3 or at least get it running so you can sell it off.

I run & instruct at PCA track days but will never own a Porsche because my philosophy is Japanese car guys should never own German cars. Relative to Japanese cars German cars need more attention (read they are not as tolerant of neglect).

M3s are phenomenal cars you just have to decide if this car is worth the effort. For me the ownership experience is just as important as the performance.

For me the whole point of the hobby is to have an outlet; If a car gets to the point that I need an outlet from my outlet, that car has to go.

Tom1200 said:

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

I owned a fast but fragile sports racer between 1997 & 2003; I loved driving the car but I hated owning it. 

I could see getting some cheap wheels for the Miata while you sort the M3 or at least get it running so you can sell it off.

I run & instruct at PCA track days but will never own a Porsche because my philosophy is Japanese car guys should never own German cars. Relative to Japanese cars German cars need more attention (read they are not as tolerant of neglect).

M3s are phenomenal cars you just have to decide if this car is worth the effort. For me the ownership experience is just as important as the performance.

For me the whole point of the hobby is to have an outlet; If a car gets to the point that I need an outlet from my outlet, that car has to go.

 

I think you articulated what I've been feeling, but better. The M3 hasn't been an outlet, it's needed a lot of care and prep for very little driving time. Part of my thought with getting a seat time car would be to take away the stress of trying to make sure the M3 is ready for each event. If I know I can just hop in something else that maybe isn't as fast but still fun, go rip it, and then worry about continuing work with the M3, then I don't think I'd care as much about the amount of maintenance. At that point it does beg the question why I own it in the first place....but when everything's working and I'm at full boil, it's really an incredible driving experience. 

Rodan said:

AutoX the ND, and use the M3 for track.

Patience is key.  Any 20+ year old car is going to have issues, especially when tracked.  Ongoing maintenance is a reality, even when you have most of the old stuff replaced.  Our track Miata has been out of action for most of this year because of ongoing upgrades (cage earlier in the year, now getting a fire system and turbo), but I know the payoff will be a much improved and safer car next year.  Having tracked street cars in the past, I really prefer a dedicated track car for a lot of reasons, but there's definitely work and expense involved.  You just have to weigh the options, and decide if the juice is worth the squeeze for you.

That's interesting...I've been thinking about this in the exact opposite because most of the things I'm not happy with on the M3 are things I'd be more concerned about on a track vs during autocross, but part of that might be that I haven't done HPDEs so the foreign feels like higher stakes than the worst case autocross scenario. 

I've loved following your build thread! When I got a NA Miata a couple years back I was hoping to take it in the exact same direction you've taken yours.

frenchyd said:

In reply to neverendingprojectgarage :

I worked mostly for one guy after a while. He had me do the restoration on the car, get it to the track for him, and then be his crew chief during the weekend.  I charged him $20/ hr (1980-2000) and worked on his car evenings and weekends. I ordered parts, etc. and he paid the costs. ( no markup )  he paid fuel costs and my entry fee at the races we attended instead of hourly rate.  My income from him paid for restoration and parts on my car (s) 

 Now that was wheel to wheel vintage racing. But I'm sure there is more than a few local guys  willing to work like that. 
      Watch at the track and see who shows up with a well prepared car that runs reliably for several events in a row.  Then  find out which one might be interested in working out that sort of deal with you. 
         

Also an interesting idea, but I do like working on my own cars. Out of the list in the first post the only job I had a shop do was the clutch and flywheel, because I didn't feel confident dropping the trans in my garage. We have a great local BMW shop that I could pay to do the work (more expensive than what you're recommending of course) but part of the theoretical fun for me is working on the cars myself. I'm probably not being very convincing based on this thread, though. 

neverendingprojectgarage said:

Also an interesting idea, but I do like working on my own cars. Out of the list in the first post the only job I had a shop do was the clutch and flywheel, because I didn't feel confident dropping the trans in my garage. We have a great local BMW shop that I could pay to do the work (more expensive than what you're recommending of course) but part of the theoretical fun for me is working on the cars myself. I'm probably not being very convincing based on this thread, though. 

Are they a BMW race shop or just a general-purpose BMW repair shop?

IMHO, you're going to encounter these sorts of problems on any 20-year-old car.  Some will have more, some will have less, but a car that old has a lot of components that are mostly worn out, they're servicable for street driving but putting it out on a track will break them quickly.  In race car service these kinds of parts will be lifed in track hours -- you put N hours on something (wheel bearings, say) and then you replace them whether not they're known-bad.  Once you know how many hours of reliable service you can expect for all of the troublesome components you can build a car that will be reliable on track by replacing stuff before it breaks.

A BMW race shop is going to know what those parts are and how long they'll go.  Perhaps you can pay a shop like that to do an inspection and prepare a list of recommended replacements, then farm some of the work out to them and DIY the rest of it.

IMHO replacing the M3 with another car of the same age is going to give you the same kind of experience, just with different parts breaking.  Replacing it with a newer car will give you an initially-better experience, but if you put enough hours on the the car on track it's going to wind up in the same kind of situation.  Stuff wears out faster on the track.  M3s can be very reliable track cars, once they're sorted and on a proper schedule.  If you like the experience of driving the car and are willing/able to put in the time and money to do the required maintenance then I say stick with it.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

neverendingprojectgarage said:

Also an interesting idea, but I do like working on my own cars. Out of the list in the first post the only job I had a shop do was the clutch and flywheel, because I didn't feel confident dropping the trans in my garage. We have a great local BMW shop that I could pay to do the work (more expensive than what you're recommending of course) but part of the theoretical fun for me is working on the cars myself. I'm probably not being very convincing based on this thread, though. 

Are they a BMW race shop or just a general-purpose BMW repair shop?

IMHO, you're going to encounter these sorts of problems on any 20-year-old car.  Some will have more, some will have less, but a car that old has a lot of components that are mostly worn out, they're servicable for street driving but putting it out on a track will break them quickly.  In race car service these kinds of parts will be lifed in track hours -- you put N hours on something (wheel bearings, say) and then you replace them whether not they're known-bad.  Once you know how many hours of reliable service you can expect for all of the troublesome components you can build a car that will be reliable on track by replacing stuff before it breaks.

A BMW race shop is going to know what those parts are and how long they'll go.  Perhaps you can pay a shop like that to do an inspection and prepare a list of recommended replacements, then farm some of the work out to them and DIY the rest of it.

IMHO replacing the M3 with another car of the same age is going to give you the same kind of experience, just with different parts breaking.  Replacing it with a newer car will give you an initially-better experience, but if you put enough hours on the the car on track it's going to wind up in the same kind of situation.  Stuff wears out faster on the track.  M3s can be very reliable track cars, once they're sorted and on a proper schedule.  If you like the experience of driving the car and are willing/able to put in the time and money to do the required maintenance then I say stick with it.

 

They're not explicitly a race shop, just a BMW specialty shop. There are usually a handful of track-prepped cars there though, and the owner and his family have done a bit of racing. When I first bought the car I took it there for the type of inspection you're talking about, but I'm sure they didn't go as deep as a speciality shop would.

What you're saying makes sense, and that's part of why I started this post. I don't have enough experience to know if this is par for the course and I need to decide whether that experience is what I want or not, or if I'm maybe being unusually unlucky here. 

The two big weak areas for track use that I'm currently aware of are the OEM subframe bushings (all other bushings are replaced and poly) and oiling. Mine gets the sewing machine ticking fairly bad after spirited limiter-riding at autox, and as far as I'm aware the oil pump nut hasn't been done. I was planning future work to do either a S54 pan conversion or baffling the stock pan, and I'd do the oil pump nut and other while-I'm-in-theres at the same time. My bugeye WRX died of oil starvation at VIR so that's also affected how enthusiastic I am about tracking the car without addressing that issue, but I know tons of M3 owners are tracking on stock pans, and the previous owner did for years. 

neverendingprojectgarage said:

My bugeye WRX died of oil starvation at VIR so that's also affected how enthusiastic I am about tracking the car without addressing that issue, but I know tons of M3 owners are tracking on stock pans, and the previous owner did for years. 

When you took the car to the shop for inspection, was this just a typical PPI, or was it specifically targeted towards track use?  Is there a local BMWCCA club racing chapter near where you live?  If so, you might ask those folks where they go to get a shop recommendation.  I don't know the E36 or S52 well enough to comment on the specifics that you mentioned, unfortunately.  If you were in NorCal I could point you to a great shop, but your profile says you're in VA. :)

I had a somewhat similar experience to you with my Miata.  I bought it new, owned it for many years, did all the work on it myself, modified to to make stupid amounts of horsepower, did a bunch of autoxing and track days and it wound up in a very unreliable state.  2 out of 3 track days I went to I was towing it home broken before lunchtime.

I decided to switch to an E46 M3 (partly for that reason, partly for some others that aren't relevant here).  I bought a car, took it to a race shop, had them turn it into a race car.  In addition to adding the requisite safety gear, they also addressed all of these sorts of issues for me up front -- subframes, bushings, control arms, brakes, cooling system, clutch, motor weaknesses, etc.  Since then I've put about 60 track days on it and only had 2 mechanical failures that caused me to go home early (a resonator that exploded and made it start to fail sound, and a throttle position sensor that put it into limp mode).  I track all of the events and part lifetimes with a spreadsheet and split the maintenance tasks with the shop -- I do the things I enjoy and I pay them to do the stuff I don't want to touch.

The other thing I didn't mention is inspections of the car on a regular basis.  Mine goes up in the air (I have a lift in the garage) between every event and I look stuff over.  I've found a few pending failures this way and been able to address before they became an issue at the track.

Compared to my Miata the experience is night and day, and being able to focus on driving rather than worrying about whether or not the car is running properly has enabled me to make big strides in that direction.  (To be clear, I'm not saying anything bad about Miatas in general here, and I could have addressed the issues by doing similar things with the Miata that I do with the E46.  There were other factors that made changing cars the right answer for me.)

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

It was a typical PPI + me telling them what I planned to do with the car, so they focused on high-wear areas and getting the car legal more than streetable. Good idea about the BMWCCA chapter, I believe my membership hasn't expired yet. The previous owner also likes a couple shops in NOVA, so only about 3 hours away. 

That's reassuring to hear about the Miata, if you feel better about the M3 vs a Miata then I'm leaning more towards just needing to take maintenance more seriously and be more proactive. I could definitely split tasks with a shop, at that point it's more a matter of budget more than anything. The inspections between events is also something I should get better about, I've been thinking about a QuickJack for a while and this might be the reason to get it. 

Based on all of the (much appreciated) feedback I'm getting here, it sounds like a set of wheels and tires for the ND to cover seat time at AutoX is the way to go, and then starting getting more serious about track prep for the M3. That'll also have the benefit of getting me into a more competitive class in my local SCCA chapter. The M3 is in XSA but so far there aren't any other regular XSA attendees besides me. There are 3 other CS ND Miatas, so I'll be able to start from 4th there!