Apparently they are doing webinar soon to go in to more of the changes. Here is the current info we already have on it. EDIT: Sorry for the gigantic images.
Apparently they are doing webinar soon to go in to more of the changes. Here is the current info we already have on it. EDIT: Sorry for the gigantic images.
Meh, another advantage to open-source and cloud-independent ECU tuning systems...at this rate reflashing production car ECUs with emissions-compliance-unfriendly track setups will be commercially impossible soon, you'll either need to use free & libre software with generic OBD2-PC data cables to do that, or go to full aftermarket EMS will full custom wiring because nobody will be able to sell cables to interface them with production car wiring harnesses while they offer non-compliant settings.
GameboyRMH said:Meh, another advantage to open-source and cloud-independent ECU tuning systems...at this rate reflashing production car ECUs with emissions-compliance-unfriendly track setups will be commercially impossible soon, you'll either need to use free & libre software with generic OBD2-PC data cables to do that, or go to full aftermarket EMS will full custom wiring because nobody will be able to sell cables to interface them with production car wiring harnesses while they offer non-compliant settings.
That's assuming you know how to properly tune a modern vehicle. In this case on the BRZ, that means DI and port injection, 4 independent AVCS modules (what give you cam timing adjustability), etc. And the average person like myself isn't going to drop $5k+ on a Haltech/Motec and custom tune, unless you're already building some kind of monster engine where you've already got $15k+ in the thing.
I just wanted to eventually be able to run a header and E85.
The real pisser is the amount of tuned cars in the US has got to be INCREDIBLY small.
GameboyRMH said:Meh, another advantage to open-source and cloud-independent ECU tuning systems...at this rate reflashing production car ECUs with emissions-compliance-unfriendly track setups will be commercially impossible soon, you'll either need to use free & libre software with generic OBD2-PC data cables to do that, or go to full aftermarket EMS will full custom wiring because nobody will be able to sell cables to interface them with production car wiring harnesses while they offer non-compliant settings.
Seems like it is still very possible to have compliance unfriendly setups, it will just throw a code, right?
I'm surprised it took this long, honestly.
Read carefully, though. It's not that they're removing the ability to tune vehicles, they're removing the ability to mess with the emissions system and suppress trouble codes. That's not the same thing. Want to put on a header? Go for it. Want to remove a cat to put on a header and remove the resulting error codes? No.
A good tuner and a properly designed header should still allow a BRZ to run E85 and a header. It is possible to increase output legally, it just takes more effort and skill than it used to.
The number of tuned vehicles in the US is fairly significant. The Bully Dog lawsuit involved a third of a million vehicles alone.
Keith Tanner said:I'm surprised it took this long, honestly.
Read carefully, though. It's not that they're removing the ability to tune vehicles, they're removing the ability to mess with the emissions system and suppress trouble codes. That's not the same thing. Want to put on a header? Go for it. Want to remove a cat to put on a header and remove the resulting error codes? No.
A good tuner and a properly designed header should still allow a BRZ to run E85 and a header. It is possible to increase output legally, it just takes more effort and skill than it used to.
The number of tuned vehicles in the US is fairly significant. The Bully Dog lawsuit involved a third of a million vehicles alone.
So back to electrical tape over the engine light.
In reply to dclafleur :
And failed emissions tests.
Note that this press release was not for consumers. ECUtek doesn't sell to consumers. This release was to tuners/vendors, who resell the ECUtek hardware and use the master software suite to develop tunes. Those are also the folks that are the subject of the EPA crackdown. If you want a non-compliant tune, you'll have to find someone who's willing to take that risk for you.
This is why I bought the hardware and software for the VW right after I bought it. All of the delete parts are on the shelf and all the software is on the programmer in case they become necessary.
Toyman! said:This is why I bought the hardware and software for the VW right after I bought it. All of the delete parts are on the shelf and all the software is on the programmer in case they become necessary.
Make sure you have any PC software you need as well, from the right time period...
Keith Tanner said:I'm surprised it took this long, honestly.
Read carefully, though. It's not that they're removing the ability to tune vehicles, they're removing the ability to mess with the emissions system and suppress trouble codes. That's not the same thing. Want to put on a header? Go for it. Want to remove a cat to put on a header and remove the resulting error codes? No.
A good tuner and a properly designed header should still allow a BRZ to run E85 and a header. It is possible to increase output legally, it just takes more effort and skill than it used to.
The number of tuned vehicles in the US is fairly significant. The Bully Dog lawsuit involved a third of a million vehicles alone.
333,000 out of 280,000,000 doesn't really seem that significant.
But yes, I realize it essentially just means you can't do anything that would defeat a Check Engine Light. But on many platforms, removing the 2nd O2 sensor or maybe the EVAP was exactly how they used the input for the E85 sensor.
In reply to z31maniac :
That was one vendor. Harley Davidson got dinged for another 340k and there are a bunch of others.
And those vehicles have an outsize effect, their emissions levels can be orders of magnitude over what the other cars.
Choosing to remove parts of the emissions system to add sensors of your own is not legal, never has been. If the car doesn't have enough sensors to do what you need to do, you need to find another way to do it. Removing evap or the second O2 sensor is the wrong way.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to z31maniac :
That was one vendor. Harley Davidson got dinged for another 340k and there are a bunch of others.
And those vehicles have an outsize effect, their emissions levels can be orders of magnitude over what the other cars.
Choosing to remove parts of the emissions system to add sensors of your own is not legal, never has been. If the car doesn't have enough sensors to do what you need to do, you need to find another way to do it. Removing evap or the second O2 sensor is the wrong way.
I was going to quote your earlier post about why this took so long, but this is a better one to repeat.
And I'll point out, a good calibrator/tuner would know how to make power without actually harming the emissions.
z31maniac said:But yes, I realize it essentially just means you can't do anything that would defeat a Check Engine Light. But on many platforms, removing the 2nd O2 sensor or maybe the EVAP was exactly how they used the input for the E85 sensor.
What? I'm not sure what you mean there- is this to convert cars to E85? Just want to point out that if the OEM didn't certify on E85, then the conversion to that via calibration isn't legal, either. And it's been at least a decade since anyone really needed an E85 "sensor" as opposed to just using the front WB sensor.
In reply to alfadriver :
That's interesting, I didn't know about that. I haven't worked with E85 for a while, but I know we always relied on a GM ethanol content sensor to adjust the fuel and timing tables instead of just using the lambda.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to z31maniac :
That was one vendor. Harley Davidson got dinged for another 340k and there are a bunch of others.
And those vehicles have an outsize effect, their emissions levels can be orders of magnitude over what the other cars.
Choosing to remove parts of the emissions system to add sensors of your own is not legal, never has been. If the car doesn't have enough sensors to do what you need to do, you need to find another way to do it. Removing evap or the second O2 sensor is the wrong way.
Oh I'm well aware. Never said it was. I've always know that touching any part of the emissions system has never been legal.
But frankly didn't care because E85 burns much cleaner than regular gasoline.
alfadriver said:z31maniac said:But yes, I realize it essentially just means you can't do anything that would defeat a Check Engine Light. But on many platforms, removing the 2nd O2 sensor or maybe the EVAP was exactly how they used the input for the E85 sensor.
What? I'm not sure what you mean there- is this to convert cars to E85? Just want to point out that if the OEM didn't certify on E85, then the conversion to that via calibration isn't legal, either. And it's been at least a decade since anyone really needed an E85 "sensor" as opposed to just using the front WB sensor.
Yes, to convert cars using the GM sensors. And yes, again I know if it's not certified for E85 it's not legal. You guys don't need to repeat stuff to me I already know.
I saw some tunes on the Mustangs that didn't need the sensor (when I was looking at getting another), but haven't really seen it for other vehicles as far as aftermarket tuning is concerned. My guess is it's because the aftermarket guys don't have the budgets and manpower to figure that out, and it's easier to just use the sensor.
z31maniac said:But frankly didn't care because E85 burns much cleaner than regular gasoline.
No, it does not. BTDT. In some gasses, they are better, in others worse, and the worse is enough that overall for a modern car, E85 is worse than E10. If it were better, given how easy it is to make cars generally run on E85, far, far, far more cars would be running it as it's still a significant advantage when it comes to the new CAFE.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
WB sensors rock. 
In the days of multiple manufacturers making 700+ HP emissions legal cars, why would you remove emissions equipment anyways? It's not costing you any power.
In reply to Javelin :
Some of the diesel guys do it because the components are failure prone and expensive - a DPF is not a cheap date if you clog it up, and the EGR on a 2010 Cummins has to be chiseled out every 67k miles. But in the case of performance cars, it's usually because the equipment prevents you from making more power and less so because it's costing you power.
Javelin said:In the days of multiple manufacturers making 700+ HP emissions legal cars, why would you remove emissions equipment anyways? It's not costing you any power.
I don't drive a supercharged V8.
In a 2800 lb car ~35 whp is a noticeable jump. And E85 is a big part of that equation.
z31maniac said:Javelin said:In the days of multiple manufacturers making 700+ HP emissions legal cars, why would you remove emissions equipment anyways? It's not costing you any power.
I don't drive a supercharged V8.
In a 2800 lb car ~35 whp is a noticeable jump. And E85 is a big part of that equation.
E85 does not require you to remove the emissions though.
EPA cracking down on a niche as if we are the problem is comical. Maybe they should focus on exporting more of the industrial pollution to China to kill off our industrial base even more.
Very off-topic but I'd love to know more about what is being done about cargo ships that are burning bunker fuel. I find it very hard to care about my rarely driven, no emissions fun car compared to constantly running industry.
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