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Recon1342
Recon1342 UltraDork
4/30/24 4:40 p.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

LOL at schedule 4 "low risk of abuse and dependence like Xanax, Ambien, and Valium"

Where's Adderall? Maybe that's sold as a health food vitamin now?

Adderall is a Schedule II drug, amigo.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
4/30/24 4:42 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Actually, the DEA put quotas (maximums) on the amount of amphetmine ADHD meds that manufacturers could produce in 2022. It needed to be done, but of course it was done without any thought to the downstream impact.
 

Now the stuff is difficult to find and often extremely expensive. I have to call around to 5 different pharmacies to find my low dosage prescription at a price I can afford, and generally ration it more than I'd like to. 
 

But that is divergent to the thread. I personally think that we should make it similar to Hunting licenses where you have to go through a hunters safety course. Weed safety and courtesy course. Part of that course will include the purchase of a carbon filter. People are stinking up the neighborhoods!

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
4/30/24 4:44 p.m.

Should be in the same schedule as alcohol, in my opinion as a non-user. People seem equally dumb and dangerous when using either one. Alcohol may be even more dangerous but I don't know the statistics. 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
4/30/24 4:48 p.m.
bobzilla said:

Those numbers are for all drug possession charges, crack/meth/cocaine/mj etc. 

From the chart on your link:

Pie chart showing the number of people locked up on a given day in the United States by facility type and the underlying offense using the newest data available in March 2024.

1.9M total in jails. 861,000 Violent criminals, so assaults, murder, rape, sexual assault etc. 260,000 for theft/burglary. 362,000 incarcerated for drugs. How many states no longer prosecute for drug possession? I think it's 16-20 that either do not prosecute or they are fined misdemeanors. So while there are 1 million arrests, there aren't nearly that many convictions resulting in jail time, so it's a little misleading. 

You're exactly right.  While today's events are about mj specifically, my opinion is that that our national law enforcement and imprisonment model for drug possession is ineffective at reducing drug use while also causing severe life-long consequences for many ordinary people, comes at significant public expense, and contributes to an enormous criminal justice complex that is atypical in the developed world.

procainestart
procainestart SuperDork
4/30/24 4:49 p.m.
mtn said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Actually, the DEA put quotas (maximums) on the amount of amphetmine ADHD meds <snip>
 

Now the stuff is difficult to find and often extremely expensive.

Try Costco: I have a family member who had similar issues finding it -- she gets it from Costco mail order and hasn't had problems.

Recon1342
Recon1342 UltraDork
4/30/24 4:50 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs out there, solely due to the fact that alcohol withdrawal is primarily a physiological phenomenon as opposed to a psychological one. Any drug withdrawal can cause unpleasant symptoms, but alcohol withdrawal is one of the few that will kill you for quitting. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
4/30/24 4:54 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Alcohol seems to have far more dangerous physical (long term) effects, while the current version of Marijuana seems to have far more dangerous psychological effects (though seems to be reasonably easy to reverse with cessation).

...Numerous lines of evidence suggest a correlation between cannabis consumption and a variety of psychiatric conditions, including cannabis-induced psychosis (CIP). While it can be difficult to differentiate CIP from other psychoses, CIP holds distinguishing characteristics, which may aid in its diagnosis. Given the increasing push toward cannabis legalization, assessing CIP and employing timely treatments is critical.

Specifically in youth, there is a direct relationship between cannabis use and its risks. The lack of knowledge surrounding its detrimental effects, combined with misunderstandings related to its therapeutic effects, has potential for catastrophic results....

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/cannabis-induced-psychosis-review

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/30/24 4:56 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Alcohol is considerably more dangerous, to both the consumer and those around them. Nobodies ever smoked themselves to death, but plenty of people drink until their livers explode every year. 

Of course so is Xanax, valium, ambien, Adderall, factory farmed chicken and beef, unwashed lettuce and spinach, botulism "Botox" injections.

The whole of the scheduling system is really messed up when you take a few steps back and look at the grand picture. 

What's going to be interesting is seeing how the 15,000 or so state licensed medical dispensaries all try to transform to federally compliant DEA inspected pharmacies at the same time. That's going to be a clusterberkeley of epic proportions.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
4/30/24 5:11 p.m.
nderwater said:

You're exactly right.  While today's events are about mj specifically, my opinion is that that our national law enforcement and imprisonment model for drug possession is ineffective at reducing drug use while also causing severe life-long consequences for many ordinary people, comes at significant public expense, and contributes to an enormous criminal justice complex that is atypical in the developed world.

An important caveat here.  While imprisonments of drug users is generally ineffective, removing the potential for imprisonment has some very negative unintended consequences.  I would agree though that, in general, marijuana users are probably not part of this issue.

The critical feature here is that without any threat of imprisonment (and some do clean up in jail, but it's not a good reason for it) there is almost no motivation for drug abusers to seek treatment before they are very far along, and many times by that time are so far mentally gone they will simply refuse any treatment.

Compelling treatment, to me, seems to be a critical aspect to have (that might be possible in other states).  You of course need to have reasonably effective programs in place....

If you want to see an active example of this effect, come visit California.  We have released all our drug offenders, and have no ability to motivate abusers into treatment.  Result: large amounts of dangerously psychotic treatment adverse people wandering our streets.

Well... most will die in the streets, so that is solution I guess, but seems a bit cruel, and there seems to be an endless supply of people to replace the dead ones.  Just for Los Angeles:

..In 2023, 2,033 people died, a staggering 291% increase from the 519 cases recorded in 2014 and an 8% increase from the 1,883 fatalities in 2022...

procainestart
procainestart SuperDork
4/30/24 5:32 p.m.

Next up for reclassification will likely be MDMA (ecstasy/molly) and psilocybin (magic mushrooms), both of which are Schedule 1, i.e., "with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse." That's interesting: if you eat a bunch of mushrooms one day, the next, you'd need to eat twice that amount for the same effect, and the next day twice that amount again, because very high tolerance kicks in, very quickly.

While there's a lot of irrational exuberance about the potential for MDMA and psilocybin to change the world, the actual research on the drugs' abilities to help people with PTSD and other mental health issues, plus addiction, is increasingly compelling, hence the likely reclassification.

Cannabis, MDMA, and psilocybin aren't harmless, for sure, but they were originally classified as Schedule 1 by political forces, not scientific ones.

Geek out on drug rescheduling at https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2024/03/19/the-fda-backdoor-to-mdma-rescheduling/.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
4/30/24 5:33 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

Agreed, experiences from California exemplify the unfortunate adage that "There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs." 

I do not have a background in public policy, social services, or medicine--nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night--and I don't have the answers.  But given the scale of the drug crisis in America, there must be lessons that can be learned and applied from other places that have a record of better drug policy outcomes.

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
4/30/24 5:43 p.m.

The only thing I have to add is- There's not hoes on the side of OBT selling their goodies for a bag of weed. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
4/30/24 5:50 p.m.
procainestart said:

Next up for reclassification will likely be MDMA (ecstasy/molly) and psilocybin (magic mushrooms), both of which are Schedule 1, i.e., "with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse." That's interesting: if you eat a bunch of mushrooms one day, the next, you'd need to eat twice that amount for the same effect, and the next day twice that amount again, because very high tolerance kicks in, very quickly.

While there's a lot of irrational exuberance about the potential for MDMA and psilocybin to change the world, the actual research on the drugs' abilities to help people with PTSD and other mental health issues, plus addiction, is increasingly compelling, hence the likely reclassification.

Cannabis, MDMA, and psilocybin aren't harmless, for sure, but they were originally classified as Schedule 1 by political forces, not scientific ones.

Geek out on drug rescheduling at https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2024/03/19/the-fda-backdoor-to-mdma-rescheduling/.

A friend of mine on another forum is one of the people spearheading the possibility of using/legalizing psilocybin for treatment of cluster migraines.  She's basically created it from the ground up over the past..... 15 years?  National conferences, meeting with all sorts of politicians, etc.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
4/30/24 6:33 p.m.
procainestart said:

Cannabis, MDMA, and psilocybin aren't harmless, for sure, but they were originally classified as Schedule 1 by political forces, not scientific ones.

I agree. 

I think it is also reasonable to say that the current reclassification is also by political forces (although this classification is probably more scientifically accurate)
 

 

ShawnG
ShawnG MegaDork
4/30/24 7:38 p.m.

Weed has been legal in Canada for a while and it's mostly a non-issue other than I'm tired of smelling and interacting with stupid stoners. I also can't stand drunks so it's not much different. 

As for the rest of the drugs, British Columbia is backtracking on their idiotic decriminalization plan. The final straw seems to have been crackheads getting high in hospital waiting rooms.

I'm glad I left that freakshow of a province. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/30/24 8:17 p.m.

How much of the violence problem is smuggling/ dealer fighting?  Leagalizing it will eliminate the need to smuggle it AND dealer gangs. Go to state smoke stores and get it there, just like alcohol. It's been almost 100 years since there has been significant gang violence over alcohol. And it was really bad when it was illegal. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
4/30/24 8:53 p.m.

One of the issues that I have been aware of is that with the Schedule l status of cannabis, scientific research was almost totally forbidden. Research funding has been almost impossible to obtain, and if you did get it approved, you had to obtain the drug from one specific vendor, whose product contains much less of the psychoactive ingredients, rendering the results relatively useless.

We've got a different sort of societal experiment going already, with decriminalization and a bunch of states with dispensaries, while the content of the active ingredient is inconsistent from batch to batch, not just between brands, and don't even get me started on adulteration. Street marijuana has been reported to have fentanyl, which is super addictive and takes very little of the drug to cause respiratory arrest.

The whole system needs reassessment, but I'm expecting massive pushback if it turns out that there is a political advantage to opposing the change. I'll stop before I violate the forum rules.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
4/30/24 9:47 p.m.
alfadriver said:

How much of the violence problem is smuggling/ dealer fighting?  Leagalizing it will eliminate the need to smuggle it AND dealer gangs. Go to state smoke stores and get it there, just like alcohol. It's been almost 100 years since there has been significant gang violence over alcohol. And it was really bad when it was illegal. 

You would think..... let's go back to California, where it is legal.

Lot's of criminal activity related to pot, mostly by Mexican cartels inside California.  Why?  Well... California, in all it's wisdom decided legal pot was a great way to generate tax revenue by taxing it, a lot.  Well, as you might guess, that of course results in illegal pot being a lot cheaper (you fo course also have to add in the extra costs of complying with the regulations of producing it legally).  Of course with it legal now, you have much larger population of customers which mean more money to be made. Illegal grows and distribution are very much alive (and likely larger?)

As the state leaders like to say "California leads the way", and if other are smart they will learn from CA and not follow.

Now, if you want to know what happens when you make all drugs legal (not that anyone is suggesting that), go to Portland....

Once again, unintended consequences (but certainly predicted by many)

It also should be noted that some of the criminal activity (robberies, break-ins etc) is related to the fact that the state legal shops have to operate in cash because of federal restrictions, which this might fix (?)

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UberDork
4/30/24 10:01 p.m.

I don't smoke nor partake at all* but I think this is logical and frankly welcome. I do agree about the charcoal filters though.
 

*I may catch a contact high every time I get on the train, much to my chagrin. 

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/24 1:29 a.m.
aircooled said:

You would think..... let's go back to California, where it is legal.

 

Or, go to Vermont. California has a bundle of problems just because it's California.

Note: I do not partake and have no horse in the race. I just think that the classification and misinformation about MJ is pretty crazy. Yeah, anything in excess is bad, but some things are worse than others and don't help my ma with her medical issues.  People I know that do use have said that the strength of the available product is way more powerful than it used to be decades ago. 

 

Peabody
Peabody MegaDork
5/1/24 8:31 a.m.
alfadriver said:

How much of the violence problem is smuggling/ dealer fighting?  Leagalizing it will eliminate the need to smuggle it AND dealer gangs. Go to state smoke stores and get it there, just like alcohol. It's been almost 100 years since there has been significant gang violence over alcohol. And it was really bad when it was illegal. 

Does anybody smuggle weed anymore? I thought that stopped years ago.

Legalization here has not stopped the black market, only changed it. If you don't want to go to the legal stores, and there are lot's of them, you go to the illegal, illegal online,  and semi-illegal stores and buy at reduced prices. Quality is now higher and more consistent, and pricing is lower, especially for the lesser quality (outdoor) weed that's now down to 70's prices.

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/1/24 8:43 a.m.

The War on Drugs has provided a lot of jobs and excuses to increase police power.   There has got to be a better way to solve the public health problem of the serial abusers without turning us into East Germany.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/1/24 10:40 a.m.

This is really good news. As many problems as our country has,  we shouldn't be wasting lives and lucre jailing people for weed. That said, I'd like to see penalties ramped up on some other things. San Francisco has a Fentanyl crisis - largely of its own making by way of decriminalizing all sorts of drug use, and letting the dealers off also. This one Fentanyl dealer in particular has been busted three times and three times was given a flight back to his country of origin. berkeley that. A good friend lost his lovely daughter to heroin laced with fentanyl. She was a straight A student who was doing a little experimenting. The guy who provided that drug should be tried for manslaughter.

procainestart
procainestart SuperDork
5/1/24 11:12 a.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

TIL what cluster headaches are, and they sound terrible. I hope your friend's efforts are making headway (no pun intended).

As an aside, psilocybin appears to be following a similar, albeit much lower, legal trajectory as cannabis did when state-level legalization efforts began: some cities (and a couple states) have de-criminalized possession of modest amounts of mushrooms, as was done with cannabis; this is a first step toward legalization. I don't believe that mushrooms should be as accessible as pot, but for people who are suffering and don't benefit from any existing viable treatment, at the very least, decriminalization would be helpful.

procainestart
procainestart SuperDork
5/1/24 11:28 a.m.
Peabody said:
alfadriver said:

How much of the violence problem is smuggling/ dealer fighting?  Leagalizing it will eliminate the need to smuggle it AND dealer gangs. Go to state smoke stores and get it there, just like alcohol. It's been almost 100 years since there has been significant gang violence over alcohol. And it was really bad when it was illegal. 

Does anybody smuggle weed anymore? I thought that stopped years ago.

Legalization here has not stopped the black market, only changed it. If you don't want to go to the legal stores, and there are lot's of them, you go to the illegal, illegal online,  and semi-illegal stores and buy at reduced prices. Quality is now higher and more consistent, and pricing is lower, especially for the lesser quality (outdoor) weed that's now down to 70's prices.

This is the first I've heard of illegal or semilegal pot shops. Curious to know where this is. In Washington state, pot is massively regulated "from seed to sale," but maybe there are fringe sellers elsewhere?

I'm not into pot, but the (obviously anecdotal) impression I get from friends who are is, legalization is a bit like Spotify and Apple Music -- it's easier to pay for it legally than it is to get it illegally. Then again, these are middle-aged, middle-class folks.

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